Will your children be gay?

[vanilla]

*Originally posted by Homebrew *
**Yeah, but No True Ultra-Orthodox Jew would be Gay. **

Thats right.
He would be a Scotsman then.

[lissener]

Polycarp, that post contained seven links. Here’s a couple more–

http://www.safeyouth.org/faq/parents/parentsd.htm#2
http://www.apa.org/ppo/issues/psuicidetest901.html
http://www.healthyplace.com/Communities/Gender/gayisok/articles.html
http://www.teenscreen.org/pdfs/SuicideFacts080902.pdf

–and a caouple quotes from them:

“Gay, lesbian, and bisexual youth have higher rates of
suicidal ideation and suicide attempts (Blake et al.
2001; Faulkner & Cranston 1998; Fergusson et al. 1999;
Garofalo et al. 1999; Lock & Steiner 1999; Remafedi
et al. 1998).”

“suicide is the number one cause of death for gay teens.”

“Why are gay, lesbian, and bisexual teens more likely to attempt suicide? The reasons for this are not entirely clear. Research suggests that discrimination due to the social stigmatization of homosexuality in our culture may have important mental health consequences.[ 51] Gay, lesbian, and bisexual teens are more likely than their peers to report past victimization and problems with substance abuse and depression, all of which are risk factors for suicide in adolescents.[52,53,54]”

[malkavia]

*Originally posted by Eve *
**I am saying it’s much more likely that the gay Orthodox Jews are so far in the closet that they’re in the next apartment. **

God, I love you. =)

[lissener]

*Originally posted by ThePadre *
Jesus knows who the homosexuals are and He will judge them in the afterlife.

Sounds kinky.

*Originally posted by ThePadre *
**Hail Mary ! **

Whoa Nelly !

[Polycarp]

*Originally posted by ThePadre *
**Jesus knows who the homosexuals are and He will judge them in the afterlife.
Hail Mary ! **

No doubt.

And His criteria will be, did they love God with all that is in them, and their neighbor as themselves? Did they do unto the least of these as they would to Christ Himself?

And if the answer is that they did not because they were driven away from the community of saints as evil, Matthew 23 makes clear on whom the blame for that will fall.

[Susma_Rio_Sep]

The bottom line about children being gay is whether they will get to heaven and escape hell when they die: this is the ultimate concern of hell believing Christians.

Now, all you religious hell believing Christians here, you must occupy yourselves with this tremendous matter; otherwise all your disquisitions and display of learning and insights here are all for naught.

You ask me? I think they will not go to hell if they don’t hurt anyone, not physically, not materially, and not emotinally, even though they are active gay folks with consensual partners.

Think about that.

Susma Rio Sep

[Homebrew]

So I guess the answer from Shodan is “obtuse”.
_
Neither lissener nor anyone else said it was acceptable to treat your child dreadfully.
_
What did lissener really say:
_

[ I ]t would probably reflect ongoing problems. Or, simply teenage rebellion. So I might deal with it the way some parents deal with blue hair or noserings.
_
I’d certainly have learned enough, I hope, from my own experiences, not to pull rank and obstinately OPPOSE it, or forbid it or something.
_
If it DID come out of the blue, as a result of a sudden brainwashing or something, I’d be as pissed as if my kid had been assaulted, but I’d hope to deal with it in the same way …

The bit about nailing their hands to a wall was an obvious joke. You are being dishonest by picking that part and ignoring the actual answer.
_

Further KellyM’s comments about it hurting her relationship with her daughter is an acknowledgement of the reality that if her daughter were an homophobic fundamentalist, then yes, indeed, her daughter would be condemning of her and that would hurt their relationship. It doesn’t mean that it’s because of the way KellyM would treat her daughter, but rather the reverse.
_
Nowhere can you find serious statements that the gay parents in this thread would treat their kids the way some of us have been treated by our parents. I have to question your motives for deliberatly misrepresenting their comments.
_
And, Izzy, the nit-wit part is your fallacious arguement that because you’ve never heard of a Gay Orthodox Jew, then they don’t exist. It’s nice how once we provided links to Gay Orthodox Jews, you weaseled that you meant “Ultra-Orthodox”. But the truth still remains that rates of homosexuality are fairly consistent throughout history and society so there’s no reason to doubt the existence of Gay people who are from Ultra-Orthodox families, and some may even still practice the faith.
_

It [homosexuality] is found in about ten percent of the population, a figure which is surprisingly constant across cultures, irrespective of the different moral values and standards of a particular culture. Contrary to what some imply, the incidence of homosexuality in a population does not appear to change with new moral codes or social mores.
American Psychological Association Statement on Sexual Orientation, July, 1994.

[Zahava424]

lissener, would you let up on IzzyR? You asked a question. He answered it. You asked people not to get hung up on your diction; could you not attack his?

That said, I agree with you all that IzzyR is naive in his assumption that there are few gay ultra-orthodox Jews. The environment in ultra-orthodox communities is such that to come out would be to become a total pariah. I’m sure this contributes to a great number of closeted people. They may even be married to members of the opposite sex, considering that being single after 27 in these communities is essentially considered the end of your life.

Also, above on this board, IzzyR specifically said that it was not automatic for a person to go to hell in Judaism for practicing gay sex. Later on in the thread, someone reiterated this misconception; I’d like to reclarify, as well as to say that according to most opinions in Judaism, hell isn’t usually permanent. It’s more like Christian purgatory; you work off your sins for a defined amount of time and then go to heaven. This is different than the Fundamentalist perspective of hell, and its implications are different. I thought, considering that this changes the meaning of “going to hell”, that I should clarify.

[Guinastasia]

If I’m not mistaken, isn’t the ultra-Orthodox sect of Judaism very small and mostly confined to Israel?

Or am I thinking of something else?

[Zahava424]

You’re definitely thinking of something else, though I can’t imagine what. There are huge communities in Brooklyn, in parts of upstate NY, the NY metropolitan area in general. It may be smaller than, say, the Conservative sect, but it’s there.

[Guinastasia]

The one I’m thinking of was an extremely strict, to the letter group of Orthodox Jews, who were so literal they were shouting at and harassing people driving cars on the Sabbath.

[Lamia]

*Originally posted by KellyM *
**I’m not coping very well with the possibility that my daughter might be straight. I think I’d be much happier if she turned out to be lesbian, although I feel vaguely guilty for thinking that.
**

Just think if you had a son!

A good friend of mine back in high school was a gay boy who was raised by a lesbian couple. So everyone in the house was homosexual, but there was still enough conflict for a couple of made-for-TV movies and a wacky sitcom.

I kid you not, they had at least one very serious argument about his taste in interior decorating. And as for the pornography debates…well, best not to go there.

(PS to Eve: Paul and Brenda are now an item. You heard it here first.)

[j666]

j66, a person can have just as much love for an adopted child as his/her biological own.

WTF? Where does adoption come into this?

[T]he mechanisms that nature created for human empathy and love are powerful; and they developed because it was a helpful tool in ensuring the propagation of genetic material.

That is an opinion being stated as a fact; maybe they developed so that we could trasfer them to and get all sentimental about dogs, and domesticate them so they could help us hunt and herd and eat better.

Just what are those ‘mechanisms’?

Just like humans have a natural emotional bond to friends and family, because we are a social species that can not survive on our own.

Your reasoning is circular; ’ … humans have a natural emotional bond … because we are a social species …’.

Great. You’ve read a little ‘social Darwinism’; move on to logic.

Establishing strong emotional ties ensures a strong and unified tribe, and a healthy tribe is a good foundation to raise healthy children.

Strong and unified doesn’t equal healthy; and a broad and fluctuating gene pool is good for the health of a tribe (which has nothing to do with my point, but at the least does not support yours).

And you skimmed right past my main point: who the fuck are you to tell me what I feel?

The purpose of life is not to breed; the purpose of life is to live.

[Svt4Him]

*Originally posted by Polycarp *
Svt, as a practical matter, imagine that you have children (I seem to recall you being unmarried), and that one of them does in fact come out to you. Would you specify what your mix of feelings and reactions would likely be? That was, after all, the gist of the OP – I can see the sort of sparring you’re doing, in that people are reading into your statements a view you may or may not hold, but I’d be interested in your honest reactions.

Actually I have two children. But I think I’ve been pretty clear, as I’ve given examples of what happened to me growing up, and being disowned, and I would not wish to make the same mistakes. But what if my son came to me and said he was going to live with two married women, or if he was married to three different women, would my reaction be any different? I don’t believe so, but it’s hard to say. Me laying down the law won’t change anything. But would I love him any less? I would hope not. The love I have for my son’s is hard to describe, as any parent will tell you. I would die for them if they were homosexuals, blasphemers, gossips, adulterers, or if they only told little white lies. Would I be happy about it? Nope.

[Priam]

*Originally posted by IzzyR *
I’ve repeated throughout this thread that I am referring to ultra-orthodox Jews, not what is known as “modern Orthodox Jews”. I would assume the incidence is significantly higher among the latter group, and even higher yet among those who became orthodox (of either variety) after their formative years.

Are you referring to the difference between Orthodox and frum? I think I spelled that right

[Kalhoun]

Svt4Him said, “I would die for them if they were homosexuals, blasphemers, gossips, adulterers, or if they only told little white lies. Would I be happy about it? Nope.”

Would you support them? Not just love them in an abstract sense, but actually support them? Would you attend a gay pride march? Would you wear the rainbow? Would you hang pictures of your son and his partner in your home or on your desk at work? Would you spend time with his partner? Would they be allowed to spend time in your home as a couple? Anyone can say they love someone, but showing it is another thing.

[Skammer]

*Originally posted by Kalhoun *
**Svt4Him said, “I would die for them if they were homosexuals, blasphemers, gossips, adulterers, or if they only told little white lies. Would I be happy about it? Nope.”

Would you support them? Not just love them in an abstract sense, but actually support them? Would you attend a gay pride march? Would you wear the rainbow? Would you hang pictures of your son and his partner in your home or on your desk at work? Would you spend time with his partner? Would they be allowed to spend time in your home as a couple? Anyone can say they love someone, but showing it is another thing. **

Kalhoun, are you saying you only love someone if you support everything they do? That you can’t love someone unless you completely support and endorse everything they believe in? That’s preposterous.

[IzzyR]

lissener,

Do you not understand that if you raise a child in a world in which “there are no gay orthodox Jews,” if that child comes to discover that he or she is gay, you have told him that he must choose between himself and his family/religion? Where do you think these escalated suicide rates in gay teens come from?

Well you seemed to be suggesting earlier (or maybe your quoted cite did) that it was the result of homeless gay kids, having been kicked out by their families. Maybe not. Your notion here that their would be a dramatic increased likelihood of suicide as a result of a parent believing that acting on an inclination is wrong is a speculative one. But if it should turn out to be valid speculation, it would not change much. I would do what was possible with the presentation to ameliorate things, but I would not say wrong was right simply because I thought it would make an unhappy child happier.

I’m not asking you what you would do if your child was struck by lightning or chased by a gorilla, because you would not raise your child to think that those occurrences would be due to his innate sinfulness, so they’re not apt analogs.

That was not the point of the analogy. I’m saying that these are complicated and far-fetched scenarios, and heavily dependent on details of the situation and additional information, and there is no need to analyze them and make advance decisions about them.

homebrew

And, Izzy, the nit-wit part is your fallacious arguement that because you’ve never heard of a Gay Orthodox Jew, then they don’t exist. It’s nice how once we provided links to Gay Orthodox Jews, you weaseled that you meant “Ultra-Orthodox”.

You should have stuck to your previous statement - even nit-wit is better than dishonest. Your statement that “once [you] provided links to Gay Orthodox Jews” I weaseled that I meant ultra-orthodox is simply untrue. I specifically used the term ultra-orthodox in my very first post to this thread, before any links of any sort had been provided.

But the truth still remains that rates of homosexuality are fairly consistent throughout history and society so there’s no reason to doubt the existence of Gay people who are from Ultra-Orthodox families, and some may even still practice the faith.

It [homosexuality] is found in about ten percent of the population, a figure which is surprisingly constant across cultures, irrespective of the different moral values and standards of a particular culture. Contrary to what some imply, the incidence of homosexuality in a population does not appear to change with new moral codes or social mores.
American Psychological Association Statement on Sexual Orientation, July, 1994.

The real truth remains that it is impossible to know if the rates of homosexuality are consistent throughout history and society. Little is known about homosexuality throughout history (I’ve speculated elsewhere on these boards that homosexuality as it exists today never existed until recent history). And even in our own society, which has a keen interest in assessing the incidence of homosexuality, there is a wide divergence of estimates of homosexuality (the 10% number in the cite is generally thought to be an overstatement - most estimates peg it at 3-4%, from what I’ve seen). So the idea that it is possible to determine that the rates are the same across other societies is ludicrous. Especially since, as noted, there is wide agreement that environmental factors can influence orientation, so there is no reason to assume that the numbers would be constant. The only thing you really see from cites like the one you’ve brought is that even respectable organizations will say silly things about politically sensitive issues, so it’s wise to be a bit skeptical.

Priam

Are you referring to the difference between Orthodox and frum?

No. “Frum” is just a Yiddish word meaning religious.

[Eve]

Are you talking about Hassidic Jews?

[Kalhoun]

Skammer said, “Kalhoun, are you saying you only love someone if you support everything they do? That you can’t love someone unless you completely support and endorse everything they believe in? That’s preposterous.”

This isn’t something they “do”. It’s who they “are”. There’s a huge difference.