You read my mind. I am almost postitive that Wrack is the Big Bad this. I am just as sure that he will use Willow and possibly Amy as his miniuns. This should get pretty good.
Whoever the Big Bad is, it is not and I repeat is not the Trio. The main reason is that they are not evil. Sure they’re doing bad things such as stealing and tormenting Buffy but they’re not EVIL. They might team w/ BB but they will not be in control.
Side note, did anybody notice that when Dawn was in the kitchen she asked who the Big Bad was and both Buffy and Willow ignored her.
Wolverine, I got the impression they ignored her because she assumed they’d stayed out all night doing Slayer/Scooby stuff, and were very much embarrassed that they hadn’t, actually, done that.
Wow, I completely missed that. Okay, well then that makes sense.
I’d like to get in on this speculation game. Look at it this way - the only time Spike didn’t get hurt on the attack was when he struck Buffy, which he did without thinking. Now he’s trying to force himself to attack, a process he still accociates with pain. That’s where his reluctance to attack comes from.
But Billy is right about one thing. This is all speculation. Maybe Spike would have killed Alley Lady. Maybe not. There’s only one fact here and it’s this - Spike attempted to attack an innocent person. Period. Maybe you guys consider this a part of Spike’s redemption, but I do not.
And even if Spike was trying to force himself into the attack, I’m not sure that that’s better. From that viewpoint, Spike was no longer attacking out of hunger of from demon instinct. He made a conscious decision to perform an evil act. You’ll pardon me if I remain unimpressed.
Isn’t that rather reductionist, to say he’s reluctant because attack = pain? He’s not a lab rat traversing a maze; he’s a thinking, feeling undead fiendish creature of the night. I read more complexity, e.g. unrequited love, feelings of inadequacy, into his motivations than you do, which is not to say your position is not thought-provoking. I now must consider the possibility that his soulquest will fail miserably, especially if/when Buffy kicks him to the curb.
From Billy:
That’s a fair criticism. But that was the point of the chip in the first place. IIRC, Maggie was a behavioralist.
You make good points; I tip my hat to you. It’s safe to say either of our scenarios are within the realm of possibility. Sheer speculation often requires some arm-waving.
I’m pulling for Spike - his leanings toward virtue appear to be led by at least some conscious choice. Contrast that with Angel, who as Angelus is as sadistic as they come, and only stays Mr. Nice Guy because the gypsy figured that was the worst thing that could happen to him.
Yabbut, as seen on Angel last year, Angel has the capacity to do evil, cause harm, kill people, or whatever he wants. After he got his soul back, he hung around with Darla & Co., killing “bad people” and not fleeing from the general havoc his vampire companions caused.
A soul apparantly means that Angel has the capacity to feel remorse for his actions. Unlike Spike’s chip, it doesn’t prevent him from committing violent acts in the first place.
I’m in the chip-can’t-redeem-Spike camp – and I don’t really believe he’s trying to redeem himself, as much as he is trying to get himself in good with Buffy while causing as much carnage as possible while psychologically hobbled. But if the Powers-Behind-the-Scenes-that-Be can make me believe that Spike has fundamentally changed, I’ll be impressed.
Agreed. Personally, I’m not going to say it’s impossible for Spike to wind up reformed. The writers could still pull it off. But right now I see no compelling reason to believe it.
And I tip my hat to you as well. It’s nice to have an intelligent discussion on this subject. Far too often in newsgroups I see arguments which can be boiled down to: “James Marster is sexy and hot. Therefore, Spike must be good.” Makes me want to stick a fork in my head. 
Wait… this isn’t a good arguement!? Well, cripes! I have been doning this all wrong…
Put me in the “Spike’s becoming good, despite himself” camp with Billy Baroo (Hey, we’re camping! Let’s make s’mores!).
Old, purely evil Spike, upon “realizing” his chip had shorted out, would have headed straight for the Summers home (where he has an invitation) and killed or vamped Dawn (two years ago it was going to be Willow, but he has reason to believe she’s too powerful for him to take on now). Or any other Scoobies he could get his fangs into, but probably Dawn. Causing more personal horror would suit his fancy.
New Spike, instead, goes after a stranger. He knows the Scoobs, he cares for some of them, so they don’t become targets.
Now, you might argue that it’s still not very enlightened to sink your teeth into another, even if you don’t know them, and I’d agree. But it’s still a step back from viewing every human bar none as a “Happy Meal with legs.”
But I think we’re going at this wrongly. Instead of asking “is it credible for Spike to become good?” we should instead ask “Does Joss want Spike to become good?”
WWJD? That’s where the answer lies.
He’d jerk us around with red herrings about Spike’s moral status and then pull something out of nowhere that’s been forshadowed in off handed strange exchanges that no one fully remembers by the time they make a difference.
So he’s going to become mortal again.
The Tim: Cite?
Ya know, I was gonna lay into the people who were saying that Spike will change because the chip will force him to, on account of Maggie was a behavioralist and that there’s something built into the chip that will cause that (and it’s just not quite finished yet), and then you go and post that. Darn you.
I’m not looking forward to the crapload of anvils of foreshadowing and Previously on Buffy’s where they recap an entire season’s worth of Behavioral Psych class so they can explain why Spike ends up being a good guy, but I can see it coming.
Tee hee–just occurred to me–what if all the foreshadowing in Angel about a vampire who gets his soul back and becomes human again is actually about Spike, not Angelus? Bwah hah hah. Now that would be funny.
On the whole Spike/chip/good/evil thing, I think an important consideration is how the chip works. Posible theories (warning - going waaay geeky here):
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The chip has a soul detector. It senses the soul of Spike’s intended victim, and goes off if Spike tries to hurt said victim. I don’t think this works - something of Buffy was yanked from Heaven - I presume it was her soul, so Spike wouldn’t have been able to hurt her. Besides, a soul detector seems a bit out of character for the Initiative, which didn’t pay much attention to the metaphysical mumbo-jumbo of the Buffyverse;
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The chip has a heartbeat detector. It senses the heartbeat of Spike’s intended victim, and goes off if Spike tries to hurt said victim. Pro: This is consistent with how the Initiative described the chip - “he can’t hurt a living thing.” However, presumably Buffy would have noticed over the past two months that she doesn’t have a heartbeat. Besides, at least some demons have hearts - Lorne’s is located in his left buttock.
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The chip has a demon detector. It senses whether Spike’s intended victim is whole or part demon, and if it is, doesn’t activate. This is the most consistent of the “detector” explanations (and explains the business with Tara in “Family”), but it illogical. The Initiative implanted the chip to make Spike docile - it wouldn’t want Spike fighting with the other inmates while they were doing experiments on him.
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The chip is activated solely on the basis of Spike’s perceptions. If he thinks the victim is human, it activates. If he doesn’t, it doesn’t. This is the easiest explanation, and probably the technically easiest. His ability to hit Buffy is because he thinks she “came back wrong.” Whether she has or not is yet to be determined. (And, of course, Tara may be part demon. ;))
Whatcha think? And how does this affect the “Spike/redemption” debate?
Sua
The look of surprise on Spike’s face when he hit Buffy without pain is enough to convince me that it’s not his perception that counts. I tend to think that it detects a soul, although I have no idea how that would work.
So Spike couldn’t beat up Angel? Now that would be funny…
You and me both!
Actually, without being up to speed on it all (on FX, Spike just got chipped two eps ago, which, I have to say, was freakin’ hilarious…poor Spikey, couldn’t “get it up” to kill Willow, being like “The Little Match Vamp” staring in he window at his pals…) I have to say that Spike comes across to me as genuinely reformed to some degree in spite of himself. It’s like he * wants *to think of himself as the Big Bad that he used to be, but in fact his heart isn’t in it. It’s all about being cool for him. He doesn’t think being “good” is ** cool **, so he resists it. Being cool is important to Spike.
In fact he has a ton of human feelings. After all, just because he can’t actually be violent against people doesn’t mean all other forms of dick-ness are off the table (does it?), yet he is concerned, helpful, tender… and just how painful is that chip, anyway? Seems to me he might just deal with it for certain circumstances. After all (TMI WARNING) I have several times in my life suffered from Orgasm Headaches, wherein the experience of Orgasm made my head feeling like I was getting a couple holes drilled into the top of it. But it was brief, so it didn’t stop me! Spike is a wimp. In a good way!
Actually, when you think about it, Spike has * always *had a very vulnerable side to him. Of all the vamps, he was the one most addicted to love, look at his relationship with Dru. She didn’t seem to really care about him all that much, but he was obviously like a puppy-dog in his need for her love. He was tortured over her the same way he has been over Buffy. When you get right down to it, he’s kinda needy. (Not to mention the fact that he’s physically vulnerable, too. Spike in a wheelchair?..you know what? After looking at all the evidence, I’ve decided that Spike was a badly made vampire to begin with, with lots of human left in him. So turning back shouldn’t be that big a deal. Right? Right?)
By the way, do we ever see how Spike got made? And did he have that hair as a human? (Loved it when Xander called him Captain Peroxide, cracked me up). I feel sorry for Marsters, he must have to have his hair done every damn week…
stoid
Spike’s Love Slave
Mmmmmmmm
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ATTENTION PLEASE:
Again, SOMEBODY PLEASE put me out of my misery, and ** loan me your collection of Angel videos. ** Please! I’m * this close * to spending my Christmas budget on buying a modified DVD player and the Angel vids from the UK just to catch up! This is driving me insane! And on one of last night’s Buffy eps, Buffy refers to “seeing Angel in LA” ARGH! PLEASE! I beg of you!
Referring to the above quote… it would make more sense for Angel to regain his mortality because he already has his soul, of course…but since the whole reason Angel and Buffy are apart is because he’s a vamp and can’t have a normal life with her, if he becomes mortal, the reason they are apart becomes moot, as would him having his own show. So I tend to think that if any vamp is gonna get their humanity back, it’s gonna be Spikers.
Because I just wanna watch him do Buffy forever…
stoid
If you wanna loan me your collection, I will pay for all the shipping, insurance, and ** ahem ** … email me.