Then you need to pay more attention. I can identify people pretty quickly, with a fair degree of accuracy, without more than a few seconds look at them. At the very least, knowing who might be dangerous to you is a basic survival trait, and if you don’t have it, you may not survive. Predatory types carry themselves differently, look at others differently, speak differently, etc. Most of them aren’t that difficult to identify.
Ok, let’s look at this.
Let’s say you do this: have a few drinks, flirt, maybe make out in the hallway, then go to your place.
You make out during the cab ride, tease him with some boob flash in the elevator, but then, once the door closes to your apartment, you suddenly get cold feet and tell him “I don’t want to do this”.
Will you be surprised if he gets very angry?
Huh. Ok then.
Hey, are you male or female? And how old are you?
As for your understanding of Singapore - your understanding is bang on. It is strict, and it is safe. Before I came it was referred to as a police state - it’s not quite that bad but you certainly don’t fear for your safety.
However, my wife has in the past, gone out and gotten drunk to the point of passing out and then taken a cab home. Calling me from the cab to meet her at the roadside (and carry her home) but not being able to tell me where the cab is or how long she will be (yes, she had that little awareness of her situation).
I hauled her over the coals and reamed her out the next day - no matter what, behaving like that is asking for trouble. If some guy in a bar had taken it into his head she would have been easy prey for date rape. And it would have been very hard to prove to a court that it was rape - after all, proving non consent is pretty hard when you can barely even provide a semi coherent account of what happened. (and around here they wouldn’t be too sympathetic to the idea “I was too drunk to consent” unless you had compelling proof you were passed out)
Yeah I do think my experiences are very different to the average American woman, in fact they are very different to most of the people you are going to be able to find.
But how much awareness do you need to realise that an alcohol fuelled party, plus laying across a bed, plus squeezing into laps, plus memories and perceptions affected by personal alcohol consumption leaves a lot of room for legitimate questions, genuine misunderstandings and the potential for mistakes and regrets on the part of both the perpetrator and the victim? What if, just what if, fuelled by alcoholic bravado (or stupidity) she made a flippant joke to the groper earlier in the night along the lines of (for the sake of argument) “If you can touch it you can keep it”? That would NOT excuse his actions, or mean its an open invitation for him to do whatever he likes to her whenever he likes, but I will certainly hold him to a lower level of culpability than the guy that wanders up to a random stranger and gropes her.
Why does he have total ownership of his actions but she doesn’t have the same level of ownership?
Now that does NOT mean that this woman is wrong, or that she has no right to choose who does and does not touch her body, or that we shouldn’t take her seriously. We should. This accusation should (must?) be rigorously investigated. It also does not mean that what she has posted is inaccurate. But I do hope that you would agree with me that the recollections of someone that had been drinking bear more examination than the recollections of someone who has not?
Now my eyes have been opened in this thread, that there are many such experiences by ladies that this sort of behaviour (by the groper) is quite “normal” and “common”. Which makes me sad, for the victims of such behaviour and also that it can be considered so normal.
At the same time please do forgive me that I cannot accept the unsubstantiated account of someone that had been drinking and flirting very heavily as complete, representative and true account of all that went on. I would love to have his side of the story, what made him think that this was ok? That he had her permission to jam his hands down her pants? (not that his account is neccessarily going to be anymore reliable by the way).
No, I haven’t. But you and many others have surely done your best to try and absolve women of any responsibility for anything that ever happens to them.
Your phrase “victim blaming” is an argument that you feel cannot be countered, and you wield it like a sword for any disagreement or when any possibly mitigating circumstances come up. It allows you (royal you) to feel good about not taking responsibility or asserting yourself, and it allows you to ignore the reality of the world around you and just blame everyone else.
Thank you, now we are getting to the real meat of the subject. At the bottom of this is not rape at all, but women’s sexuality and the urge to control or punish it.
No, sitting on people’s laps is not the only way i know to show a guy I’m interested. But, in the right circumstances, it is a pretty darn effective one. I’m glad you and your wife have such a sweet love story. I met my current beau at a bar. I’m not thinking about married, but the sex is freaking great.
Yep. That’s my right. It’s my right to seek and enjoy sex without giving up my right to choose who I have sex with. This is not unreasonable. This is not anything men do not regularly do without a second thought. This is something that many women do without a second thought. I promise you, since the day beer was invented in Ancient Egypt, women have been flirting with attractive guys in a sexually provocative manner at parties. Even caring, smart, successful, responsible women get horny and that doesn’t make them any less of a person. And that doesn’t mean they are a whore (oh, I mean “party girl”) who deserves to be fingered by every wierdo who gets a hardon.
Nobody is looking for “anyone to take home.” Not even guys. A guy who says that would probably still reject the host’s shriveled old grandmother, the toothless crack whore, his brother’s pregnant wife, the girl who has said that she is looking for a source of child support, the drama queen who slit her wrists over her last hook-up, etc. Women are the same way. Just because she is flirting with the cute guys on the bed doesn’t mean she is interested in the weird dude who corners girls on their way to the bathroom.
And yeah, I expect you to treat me with RESPECT equally wether I am a notorious prude or a woman who enjoys and pursues sex. What part of having a healthy sexual appetite- assuming my encounters are safe, consensual and not full of drama- would make me any less worthy of respect?
Yeah but I haven’t done those things, and I’m still getting called a rape worshipper.
All I’ve done is call into question her account of the event, because she herself wrote that she “may not have been clear”.
Everything after that has been answering hypotheticals, and at no time have I written anything that could be construed as “she was asking for it”. Yet the “rape worshipper” label got applied anyway.
No it wasn’t. Where did I say that it was?
This is why discussions like this are so hard.
I say - “well hell, ya know, there are some situations that are riskier than others, be aware and conduct yourself accordingly”
Then someone else comes in and says “aha, so you are saying that if a woman wears a tight dress she deserves to be raped? Fuck you’re a misandrist and an arsehole who has no understanding of American society”
Let me ask you something.
You put yourself into group of men, that you didn’t know, that were treating women like sex objects. Why are you surprised when they started treating you, who is not measurably different from the women below on the street, like a sex object?
This does NOT reduce the criminality of their behaviour. It also does not reduce your rights to control of your own body.
If I was on the jury I would convict them. And then I would turn around to you an admonish you to be more aware of the situation you are putting yourself into in future.
However recognising this is akin to recognising, “hey. It’s snowing, perhaps I should drive slower.”
Male. 43.
Have you ever been to New Orleans? It’s a bit odd trying to explain the situation to someone who has never been there. Yes, people throw beads and whistle at each other, but sexual assault is still not encouraged. The whole point is that the willing participants are willing, all while oodles of other people run around and do regular night on the town stuff.
Further, this isn’t Mardi Gras: people weren’t literally showing their tits for beads. In fact, I didn’t see a single pair in all my time up there. I take that back, a few men flashed their chests at the men on the balcony with us, being cheeky and stupid. What I did see though, was a group of people on a balcony, cheering, “HEEEEEEY!!!” to the people on the street, the people on the street going, “HEEEEEEY!!!” back, the people on the balcony throwing beads, the people on the street having fun grabbing them up. Cheers and merriment around.
I wouldn’t be surprised if he got angry, but I would be surprised if he shoved his hands down my pants after I told him I did not want to continue.
I may have realized that I forgot to take my birth control last night, suddenly felt a huge gush of period blood, gotten carsick on the ride home, remembered that the guy has herpes, or whatever. Or I might have just decided I don’t want to have sex with this man at that time.
He can call me a bitch, go punch a wall, post on Facebook that I’m a tease, or do any number of legal things to show is frustration. But he can’t assault me.
Not exactly on point, but an anecdote: I had a good friend who was harassed for over a year by an angry ex. The girl was disturbed, regularly making up outlandish fantasies, claiming (for example) that he kidnapped her and tied her to a tree in the middle of the woods, etc. Some of these invented incidents took place when he was in a different state, making them patently absurd. After awhile, the cops figured out the deal, and knew her claims were false; nonetheless, each and every time she made up a story, the laws put in place because of the “never question a victim’s story” mentality required the cops to come by his house and put him under a restraining order for several days.
Repeatedly defending himself in court cost him tens of thousands of dollars. He was humiliated by having cops repeatedly come to his home and workplace, so that all his neighbors and coworkers knew he was accused of sexual assault. Even routine daily life was made difficult (she lived on a main thoroughfare, and he was not allowed to drive past her house, forcing him to drive miles out of his way). And the psychological toll – e.g. a fear of relationships with women – lasted for years.
She filed something like a dozen restraining orders on him; all complete myths, all of which she dropped charges for, because she knew they were myths. In every one, the police and court system were the tool she used to harrass him, with no consequence to herself.
So yeah, there are consequences to the “never question the person claiming victimhood” mentality.
I realize this is a cop out answer, but it’s honestly how I feel: you can never understand what it’s like to be a young woman. You can’t see the world through those eyes and while it’s not your fault, you have to understand that the nicest, most kind, most amiable man can become the biggest creep in the world in an instant.
Like I said, I was at a Halloween party with a bunch of professionals (teachers, if you must know) and one man was literally trying to take pictures up my skirt. This quiet little meek man, who I would have never pegged as anything more than your average quiet nerdy guy got, a camera and suddenly he was literally crawling on the floor to take a picture up my skirt. I didn’t flirt with the guy, I didn’t touch him, I didn’t hit on him, I didn’t do anything to suggest I wanted him and wanted him then.
So, any way, I promise I’m not being dismissive, but if you haven’t been a 14 year old girl being chased down my strange men in your neighborhood. . . you can’t understand what we women are conditioned to deal with. As somebody else pointed out: it’s so sad that this is our reality and that as such, it’s no big deal to most of us. It happens that often.
Women have every right to pursue sex. It is fun, and I am sure you enjoy it just as much as I do.
And yeah, grinding your pelvis into his is a great way to get his attention. (it would get mine :p)
However (there’s always a but right? 
) if A sees you using sexual physicality to get B’s attentions, don’t be surprised if A thinks sexual physicality is a good way to get yours.
Doesn’t make it right. Doesn’t make it legal. Doesn’t make it any less traumatic for you.
But it does make it easier for me to understand WHY he would do such a thing.
This post is why people keep bringing up the virgin/whore idea. In this view, women are either “sex objects” that do not get respect, or they are non-sexual beings hanging around Christian libraries in business casual who do get respect.
A woman can be sexual without being a “sex object.” An atmosphere can be sexually charged without it being sexually predatory. Sex is not the same thing as sexual violence.
The vast majority of men manage to be around sexual women in sexually charged atmospheres without assaulting anyone. There are some psychos that we can’t do anything about- but frankly they could show up anywhere. What we can do something about is the otherwise normal guys who don’t have a good understanding of or respect for sexual boundaries and get themselves in trouble.
Am I being sensitive or are you calling me a sexual predator in waiting?
You’re being overly sensitive. I don’t get that from her post at all.
If he had kept it at “sexual physicality,” none of this would be an issue. I don’t she would have thought anything of it if (beyond maybe “ewww gross”) if he had gone for a kiss or asked to sit in her lap or something.
When it became an issue is when she told him she was not interested, pushed him away, and he forcibly fingered her. Any confusion about the nature of the relationship or her interest in physical sexuality with him specifically should have been put to rest when she said “fuck off.” Anyone with an understanding or respect for sexual boundaries knows that no matter what was happening previously (which in this case could be “absolutely nothing” with this particular guy) a woman telling you to fuck off and pushing you away is a sign that she does not want you to touch her, and that you should probably stop touching her.
And yeah, it doesn’t really make a difference to me if it’s a stranger in the library or a friend at a club- when I say “No, get off me.” that’s it. If you continue, then it is exactly the same to me no matter who you are. The only thing that would make it “less worse” if it was a friend is that i could assume his hands were probably cleaner than a library bum’s.
Here, we are in total agreement!! 
bengamo, I do see where you’re coming from. The problem is that women do risk assessments every time we walk down the street. We do them when we go to the car park, when we go to the shop, when we go out to the supermarket at night when it’s dark. When we walk down the street. When we go to a bar. And it doesn’t always work, because you can’t read people’s minds.
I’m not sure that you (generic you, but also you, you) understand how common a problem this is. How many normal men, people we work with, people we go to classes with, friends and friends of friends, have issues with sexual boundaries. How many of them think that pushing at boundaries, even ignoring them temporarily in the hope that we’ll change our minds and consent after all, is ok. That’s to your credit, because it means you’re one of the many men who manage to restrain themselves in the face of all this existing-while-female harlotry we all apparently engage in.
And still, what you and Snowboarder Bo have been doing throughout this thread is focusing attention in the wrong place, I think. It is much simpler for a man to restrain any desire he might have to assault a woman than it is for that woman to have to decide if every single man she comes across in a day (do you know how many men you come across in a day? Count them one day - I work in an office with 4000 people in it. Lots of them are men…) might assault her. And it is more likely that you’ll be assaulted by someone you know, rather than a random stranger, because people you know are more likely to push boundaries, rather than less.