Also - it is bothering me, that if a post does not contain if or allegedly in reference to the man’s guilt - there are those who are up in arms. Yet those very same people have no doubts that Noirin was both way too drunk to remember things correctly and/or just a tramp.
Seriously - who is the hypocrite?
Actually I am looking at the specifics of the case. Here is why I believe her:
The level of the attack. If you are going to smear someone, you are going to come up with more than “he fumbled around.” That’s barely even an assault. Drama queens, liars and delusional tend to go for the big guns, not minor offenses.
Her reaction: She wasn’t going for the drama. She wasn’t saying stuff like “I don’t feel safe anymore” or going off about how traumatized she was and how hard it would be to recover. She said that he ruined her day and she thought that it was bullshit he could get away with it. This is consistant with my reaction to similar stuff in the past, and not consistant with a false accusation where you would want the attack to look as bad as possible and for you to be as big of a victim as possible. She’s actually downplaying the incident.
Her frankness about the background of the incident. She didn’t say “I was standing on the corner minding my own business…” She freely volunteered details that she knew would have put her up to increased scrutiny. She didn’t try to emphasize her innocence at all. In fact, that is kind of central to her point- she feels like she out to be able to flirt at a party without every random guy on earth feeling like he has the right to grope her after being told not to.
It’s all consistant. It all makes sense. I am almost certain it happened as she stated.
This is not a matter of automatically believing every woman. If a teenage girl who just found out she is pregnant suddenly “remembers” being raped under vague circumstances by her boyfriend’s football rival, I am going to ask a lot more questions.
Although I do wonder why we have this level of disbelief for rape and not other crimes. There are countless Pit threads about random crimes, and it’s pretty rare for anyone to say “Eh, the victim is probably making it up or doesn’t understand or something.”
I find it telling that it appears that most of the folks defending the guy are. . . guys. All of the folks lecturing women about what to wear and where to go are guys. Most of the people saying that women don’t handle situations properly are guys. Hmm.
Time to resurrect this thread. Can’t believe it’s been dormant for six years.
No, the victim is not “probably” making it up, but “possibly”. It merely needs to be investigated further.
Frequently, its a clash of two idiots like the blog woman and the groper. They both need to learn a lesson.
The thing that has ME up in arms is that, again, the guy might have misconstrued the signs enough to try for a kiss. But there’s no way in hell that he misconstrued “Get the fuck off of me” accompanied by a shove. THAT’S what makes it cut and dried.
Lynn, she was just playing hard to get. C’mon now.
Actually, this was a pretty common meme in movies and TV up until a few decades ago…a woman would spurn a man’s advances, but he’d persevere and finally win her…heart…in the end.
What I am upset about is it seems as if they will grasp at any and every straw to profess a man’s innocence in the situation, and will throw every accusation at the woman and make assumptions about her moral character.
Snowboarder Bo even claims an alternate understanding of what she said - either due to a lack of English skills or another impairment, and truly believe that her statement, “I may have been less eloquent, but I don’t think I was less clear” does not mean what most people think it means - and spent many posts arguing that it was obvious that she was very drunk (convicting her for drunkenness), and that the man was being unfairly prosecuted and innocent until proven guilty.
These guys are trying anything to “prove” then man’s innocence in the court of public opinion, and are unwilling to listen otherwise.
The issue of the sexual assault aside, I’ve been to lots of parties, lots of drunken, crowded parties, and I have never gone around sitting on guys’ laps. I am not saying that sitting on laps caused this lady to be assaulted. Not at all. I just don’t believe that a respectable grown woman should be going around sitting in guys’ laps (especially drunk guys she doesn’t know very well). This is not a very classy thing to do, not very mature or lady-like, and actually kind of a trashy thing to do (IMO). And I am NOT a prude.
If I was out at a party and I was with a female friend, and she was drunk and started doing that, I would pull her aside and tell her to stop, (1) for her own safety (not to give any potential creeps the wrong idea) and (2) so she won’t have to be embarrassed about her drunken behavior the next day.
No, I didn’t. Stop lying. Neither I nor ben has been trying to prove anything except “prove” that we don’t really know what happened.
I said that she might not have been clear, and her description (“but I don’t think I was less clear”) certainly leaves room for doubt.
I didn’t ever spend any posts arguing that she was drunk, only that she may have been. Hell, she’s the one who wrote about beer pong and going to the pub, not me.
Stop lying. And if you have a beef with something I wrote, have the fucking strength of your conviction to Pit me, instead of posting biased, thinly disguised Pittings-as-pollings in other forums.
Well maybe Bo can’t understand, but I do - I am a 34-year-old woman. And I agree with most of what Bo has been saying here.
As a woman who has always enjoyed going out to parties and bars and partied way too much during college and in my 20’s, I learned that women MUST be careful. This includes being careful with how you act around crowds of drunken guys. This includes not sitting on dudes’ laps, and not dressing like a hooker, and a bunch of other common-sense stuff. And watching out for your girlfriends and other women who you don’t even know. I know how to have a good time, and thank goodness I have never been assaulted, BUT there have been some times where I got so drunk that I blacked out and kicked myself big time the next day because I had put myself into such a vulnerable position of being easy prey.
Don’t really feel up to a pit war - but I am not lying.
Here is your misinterpretation of her words - which 90% of all humans who speak English understand to mean she said something similar to f*ck off.
Also - you use state “it seems likely that she was inebriated” and “what seems clear to me is that the woman has imperfect knowledge, due to alcohol consumption, of exactly what she said and the manner in which she said it, by her own admission”.
Unique interpretation of the English language aside, you think she was (likely) inebriated - yet you say people are jumping to conclusions on whether or not she was assaulted. I see this as you judging her at the same time you are calling for people not to judge him.
No, you’re lying again. At best, 90% of the people who bothered to answer your stupid, biased poll agreed with your interpretation.
You see that because you’re without reading comprehension skills. When people talk about large amounts of alcohol being consumed, it’s not a leap to think they may have been inebriated. Note the word “may”. I never said she was drunk, only that she may have been. But you keep lying about what I said, in post after post and in forum after forum.
And you know what, I do judge her. I judge her being stupid for posting this stuff to her blog, with nothing for anyone to go by but her word. That’s what I first posted, and I stand by that opinion.
You know, telling lies to try and convince people that this other person told the truth isn’t going to help your cause. But you’ll prolly blame that on me, too, since you want so desperately to cling to your status as a victim. Good luck with that.
Except you don’t know what she said, do you? Can you link to the youtube clip of the event, to clear up the confusion? No?
Then why won’t you just admit that you have no more idea of what she said than anyone else?
I don’t know exactly what she said. I don’t have evidence, other than her word. But I’ve seen this situation happen so many times that I find her believable. On the other hand, as someone else said, if she was just being a lying hosebeast, she could have made up a much more damnable story than that.
Also, I don’t consider YouTube clips to be reliable sources. Yeah, I know, the irony, it BURNS. But even if she was pretty drunk, she can probably remember some guy kissing her, telling him to cut it out, and then him groping her. And that’s basically what she says happened.
That’s not what I said, but I can see where you’d rather assert that than counter anything that I actually said.
Should we throw out due process? Didn’t say that, because it’s necessary.
Dispassionate search for the truth? Absolutely necessary for the legal process, but not at all what is happening here. As even sven noted, people jump to say “If that’s what happened” for sexual assault allegations in a way that you just don’t see for any other crime.
Presumption of innocence? Absolutely necessary for a defendant going to trial, but what we see here are complete strangers bending over backwards to exonerate a guy who they don’t know from Adam, even though they weren’t there either.
Not what I said, but how have your attempts to track down this guy or his friends and get his/their side of the story going?
Would you start telling the men in the situation that letting a woman sit on their laps is trashy and not something they should be doing?
If the man was my friend, I would probably ask him if he was OK with some strange drunk woman sitting in his lap uninvited, and I would probably express my opinion that I did not think it was appropriate. I would also try to “rescue” him if he felt uncomfortable and needed an “out.”
I would not go up to a stranger and say it, but I would be thinking it.
I think that some men would be uncomfortable if a drunk woman came up and sat in their lap uninvited. They may feel that their personal space was being invaded.
Why would a woman think it is OK to just plop their bottom on a strange guy’s lap? And why would anyone think this is appropriate behavior at a party or at a bar, with someone they don’t know, and with alcohol flowing? This seems like something that would be likely to happen in a strip club, with a stripper sitting in a guy’s lap, trying to get tips. That’s another reason the practice, in my opinion, is skeevy. It’s more than just flirting, or a light touch like a guy placing his hand on the small of a woman’s back who he may be interested in (although I personally would not like this from a stranger either). It’s full-on body-to-body contact, and very suggestive, sexually charged contact. I don’t know why Norin, the woman from the OP, thought it was fine to be sitting on dudes’ laps at a technical conference. Not very professional, not very lady-like.