CRorex:
In other words, in the process of making a decision, one should take into account that other people are going to be complete fucking assholes, and whether one’s decision will be asshole fodder.
I have a better idea. Punish the assholes.
So…
…She was asking for it?
Cervaise, I have to tell you- I think you’re just being deliberately agressive here and picking a fight. No one is saying she “asked for it”, but what IS being said (and I agree) is that if you intend to travel with an item that you might find embarassing or that might create a security question, perhaps you may want to take steps to ensure it DOESN’T become a problem.
Yes, it’s a problem to fly with a battery operated vibe that is armed and ready. If it turns itself on, your luggage now has to be opened, searched, and spread out for the world to see. That’s they way it is. Same if you were carrying an electric toothbrush that went off or a shaving razor.
The difference is that the security personell acted like total assholes. THAT is wrong. She did not ask for that at all. But it is not unreasonable (IMHO) to expect that your bags can and will be opened and the contents spread all over a table when you’re flying- it’s been done twice to me since 9/11, and I expect it will be again. Once it was in a private area and once it was not- it was right in front of the line of people boarding.
Since I WOULD be embarassed to have a vibe sitting there on a table in front of everyone/anyone, I wouldn’t pack one. That’s me. I’d be embarassed at that. That’s not to say someone should expect to be humiliated, which is a different thing altogether.
The actions of the personel were obviously over the top and wrong, but there are obviously two different points here:
1- securty people should not ever do things that embarass passengers and make them uncomfortable. Waving around a sex toy does that. Wrong.
2- people should expect their bags to be hand searched at any time when flying, particularly if something is buzzing in there. If said person would be embarassed by having their vibe put on a table and displayed in front of other passengers, they shouldn’t pack it in their bag. Period. Again, I’m talking about having your bags checked and the contents removed, not having someone making remarks or waving a dildo around for the world to see.
When these two points get mixed together, it sounds a lot like “Hey, if you don’t want the security guards waving your Vibe 2000 around and creating a scene with it, don’t pack it”. That’s not what’s being said.
No one is saying she deserved to be humiliated and embarassed, but they’re saying that one should be careful about what goes into your luggage so you don’t accidently cause a security issue, which is what happened to Ms Koutsouradis. She did not deserve to be harassed. She also used poor judgement (IMHO) by packing a loaded vibe in her luggage.
“Ma’am, excuse me, but is that vibrator loaded?”
lol…yeah, with loaded with extras! Why, if you plug it in, it will go all night! Slip this bumpy sheath on it, it’s ribbed for her pleasure! In fact, this model is so loaded with features, you’ll want one of your own!
::security guard:: "Ma’am, we’re going to have to confiscate this item. National Security and all…::
Zette: I’m not suggesting that it’s unreasonable to expect a buzzing bag to be opened, and one’s sex toy exposed to scrutiny. If she were making a stink about that and only that, then I’d be on your side, telling her to be careful, don’t put the Twisting Dolphin or whatever in your carry-on, here’s a couple of quarters so you can have a clue delivered, and so on. No argument from me on that score, at all.
But how does her carelessness excuse the humiliation and abuse?
It doesn’t, obviously. You’ve said as much. But that’s precisely what I’m taking issue with – the implication by some people in this thread that, because she didn’t think ahead, she deserved whatever she got. That steams my glasses, and if calling bullshit on that attitude is “picking a fight,” well, I guess I better lace up my gloves.
Seriously, I think we’re lacking some major detail in the story. Did she go to the airline with her complaint first, or leap straight for the legal referral service? If the latter, well, she needs to chill. But if she did go to the airline to register her displeasure, and they brushed her aside and refused to take her seriously, then I say, great, sic the attorneys on them if that’s what it takes to get their attention. The inspectors need to be disciplined or fired, and Delta should have done that without further prompting. If the woman didn’t give them a chance, well, that’s one thing. If she did, and they blew her off, then legal recourse isn’t just warranted, it’s obligatory. We don’t know the specifics, so it’s hard to pin down with any certainty.
But I will continue calling bullshit on anybody who says that she deserves one iota of the blame for the assholishness displayed by the inspectors.
[quote]
said by KellyM
*CRorex: Every “adult” item I’ve ordered online has been shipped via FedEx or UPS. Since these services are not “mail” the postal regs don’t apply. *
Everything I’ve ever gotten from the Blowfishies has been sent by US Postal Service Priority Mail.
Considering the things I’ve bought from them, if it were illegal to mail sex toys, they’d be in some seriously hot water.
(At the danger of being off-topic to a fare-thee-well…)
In Riyahd yesterday (or in yesterday’s paper) a customs guy opened a suitcase filled with 300 cobras.
(well, they COULD HAVE BEEN sex toys.)
Sturmhauke, punishing the assholes is all well in good. But the thing about assholes, is they’re SNEAKY and everyone has one too! <shrugs>
What I’m getting at here is, unless you make the punishment bad enough that it makes everyone stop and think before they say something which COULD offend someone, you’ll end up with people doing it. Heck, look at how many people texas executes each year for crimes, and yet there still are crimes comitted. Based of the criminal justice situation of crimes still being committed despite already heavy punishments involved I don’t think you can set a punishment nasty enough to make everyone ‘play nice’. If executing cop killers still doesn’t stop cop killings then I doubt and punishment you could make for someone who makes an inappropriate joke at the expense of someone else will work.
Unless you want to make their death long, painfull and drawn out… But that’s not going to happen. Sometimes you just can’t control your reactions.
So again we’re stuck with a situation, you NEVER know where an asshole will show up and do something that humiliates you.
Ya know its up to you in the end. If you really want to pack that video of ‘wet and nasty with transvestite midgets’ and you’re 14inch spiked dildo in your suitcase, ya gotta wonder what someone’s reaction will be when they open your suitcase up and suddenly sees both of them. If you don’t think you could live down someone finding those in your luggage, let alone making a comment about it, then why did pack them?
Yeah I’d bitch at anyone who said that too.
But unfortunatly Cervaise, I never said that she deserved what she got. I just said you should think twice about packing sex toys… or anything else that would embarass you if it was found.
You said it yourself, THE IMPLICATION. They never said it. Maybe you should try to figure out what they mean before you lace up those gloves? It’s one thing to call someone out on something stupid they said. It’s another thing to make up something stupid you think they are saying and call them out.
CRorex…
Doctors and nurses have to see all kinds of oddball stuff. They see people who have wrecked their bodies with drugs and alcohol, and find no shame in admitting it. They see people who have acquired STDs, or sustained odd injuries during the sex act. They see people who have fallen just short of Darwin awards, and likewise have no shame about admitting how they sustained their injuries. They see families that act up, necessitating the intervention of orderlies, security, or even cops. If you work in a hospital long enough, you’ll see evidence of every deviant act, if not the acts themselves.
I’ve read testimony from MDs and RNs on this board about such cases. What I have not heard is any medical professional admit that they mocked a patient or family member to their face. I think one such person called for censure of a colleague who did do that, and rightly so. If they can hold their tongues, with all the pressure they’re under, so can airport security.
Good point, Rilch. Doctors and airport security personell are certainly equal in training, pay, and intelligence required, so they should be equally mature, sensitive, and discreet.
Does a person have to have an advanced degree to learn manners and consideration? Do companies have to train their staff not to make fun of customers to their face? Is there a salary level below which it becomes okay to be a thoughtless, cruel SOB?
I said that medical personnel are under a lot of pressure. But for the most part, they keep it together and present a civil face to the world. Airport security personnel are also under a lot of pressure. But don’t tell me that there are professions that are absolved from the need for civility. (And I know somebody’s going to say “rodeo clown” or something like that. You know bloody well what I mean.)
My worthwhile contribution is to laugh until my eyes water at anyone who’s ever been caught with a sex toy at an airport and been publicly humiliated by staff and/or customers therein. To laugh at those whose private shames put on display for all to see and be jeered at. Yes indeed. I laugh at thee.
On a completely unrelated note, someone once said “Nobody can make you feel inferior without your permission”.
My situation did not involve any toys, or any electronic items at all. It did not involve any items that would even show up on a metal detector, nor which could by any stretch of the imagination be used as a weapon. My situation involved airport personnel openly mocking me and making very crude comments about clothing items - and them cracking down hard on me with bullshit “rent a cop psychology” with large mens and guns (and the implied “We’ll just take you to the back room for questioning, rape you a few times to teach you a lesson, and then maybe charge you with a Federal Crime” stance) when I dared - dared! - to politely protest their ill-treatment of me - which, when I have described the specifics of it to a lawyer, sounds absolutely actionable. In fact, the thing that was truly and totally scary - was that one of the security officers lied openly about what I had said.
That’s really, really, really scary when someone who can send you to jail for being a “terrorist” on a whim lies openly about a situation.
If you want to know the brutal truth - it was the fact that this little fuck could have said anything - since he was already lying, why not? - he could have said I made a threat, that I joked about a bomb - anything. I mean, once you’re in front of a security person who is lying openly to a cop, what else is he going to say, really?
I shook for hours afterwards. Thinking about how close I was to being locked in a room, as a “terrorist” - held without any access to a lawyer, any witnesses, or any recourse.
I learned my lesson. Next time, I will stand there meekly, as the Man wants me to, and aknowledge his Majesty over me, and how he has dominated me. I will answer all the questions “Yes sir”, “No sir”, when appropriate.
Oh, my crime? Here is exactly what I said:
“Come on guys, do you have to go through all that stuff like this? Can’t you put me behind a screen when you search through it?”
In response, the security person looked at me with a look of infinite disgust, waved for the police, and said:
“This person has just refused to have their luggage searched. They are refusing to cooperate with us.”
And then, in an almost casual move, one of the cops rested his hand on the butt of his 9mm, while the other one got right in my face, looking down at me (he only weighed about 130 pounds more and was more than a foot taller than me) and said:
“YOU WILL COMPLY WITH ALL SECURITY PERSONNEL, OR YOU WILL GO TO JAIL! DO YOU UNDERSTAND ME!!!???”
in that “big man” bellow that we all so remember from High School football players.
I do have to say that (since I fly about once eery couple weeks on average) since the security was “federalized”, the apparant professionalism and intelligence of the screeners has improved in general, as well as their politelness. I have no idea if there is any causality between being federalized and improving their quality, but in general it seems like things are going smoother.
In an ideal world, no.
This isn’t an ideal world. How many thousands of threads on here are dedicated to people who badly wield the little bit of power their low paying job gives them, or about annoying customers who end up encouraging that sort of behavior by being really annoying?
The problem here is that in the (here we go) post 9/11 world, anyone who chooses to fly is now subject to having their bags hand-searched, whether there is a question about what’s in it or not. Anybody who has to go somewhere is at risk for running in to similarly low-intelligence, poorly trained, inadequately supervised “security” nimrods who are drunk on their own power and know that they can screw us (the flying public) over with simply their say so. This is a system begging for abuses.
The only way to contain those abuses is to counter them with extremely strong responses that make it clear that they simply will not be tolerated.
I wonder if anyone would be blaming the victim in the least if the security assmunches had say, held up items of her clothing and waved it around and made jokes about it. (“Lookit the thongs, whoohoo, sexy mama!” or “Check out the size of this fatasses’ pants! Whatta tub of lard!” “Mmm, look at this ugly dress. What a tacky piece of shit this is. Do you really wear this? Hey Bob, can you believe that anyone would actually wear this? I wouldn’t wash my car with this!” Would it have been her fault for packing clothing? No?
So why are we holding up a different standard for this woman because she chose to pack a sex toy? Isn’t doing so just giving credence to the puritanical ideals that would claim that sex is an embarrassing thing which should be hidden behind closed doors, and that any woman who would ever enjoy it, and admit to it by carrying sexual implements (or contraceptives) around with them is a slut who deserves any kind of comments that can be thrown at her, and ought to just suck it up, because sluts aren’t worth anything better.
Bottom line: do paying customers of the airlines have the right to pack any legal item that they wish in their bags without having to face poor treatment, embarrassing comments, derision, scorn or jokes at their expense by security personnel who feel a need to explore those bags? It’s either yes or no, no matter what those items are. And if the answer is yes, and it happens, the victim is not to blame.
Dammit, I was just getting ready to post the same thing. 
There is a really nasty joke about yeast just begging to be made here. DOH!!! on further reading, porcupine already made this point.
So basically my whole post here is pointless, as all it says is that I was gonna say that to two different things that have already been said. I probably shouldn’t even bother posting.
But I will anyway. I’m so weak.
And you still haven’t been able to pound the idea into your head that merely having your sex toy discovered in luggage by security IS NOT THE FRIGGIN ISSUE HERE. It is the way she was mocked, the way she was made to hold it up so EVERYONE COULD FUCKING SEE IT etc. There is a rather huge difference between having the security people see it, and question you about it, and being ridiculed and put on public display. Maybe if we say this a few hundred more times you will understand.
I’d like to add that I feel sorry for anyone who goes through my luggage on the way back from a trip. I don’t do laundry until I get home, and depending on the type of trip, I sometimes wear my clothes rather hard.