Women and sexual assault.

In My Humble Opinion
241

Reminds me of the charming man who, when I first moved to Paris at the tender age of 18, walked up to me on a deserted street and said “Let’s fuck.” I said, “I’m sorry, I have a boyfriend.” smiled nervously, and kept walking. (You learn early on not to actually stop to have a conversation, else you’ll never escape. Same with people asking for money for charity, that.)

Instead of leaving it there, he followed me to the metro stop, commenting on my tits and arse in graphic detail all the way, and finally started to scream at me, calling me a “racist c**t” (I’ve asterisked, since I’ve no idea what the board policy is on that word anymore) and a bitch and all kinds of other things I’ve since forgotten, before leaving me alone when we finally got to the metro and there were other people around.

Oddly, that kind of experience doesn’t tend to make me want to give men the benefit of the doubt anymore - and that one ended well, because he did, in fact, leave me alone, albeit fucking terrified.

242

I’m reminded of the episode of South Part where Quagmire is spying on Lois in the ladies room.

All the women are mad at him for the violation and all the men (including Peter) want Lois to apologize for “not taking the nice compliment”.

243

Man here. Well, boy in a man’s body.

I once felt like many of the men here. Women’s lib was over, job well done. Then my best friend started dating this self-proclaimed feminist. My friend, who’s very open minded, grew to accept a lot of, for lack of a better term, the basic tenets of the modern feminist movement.

Several years later I started using Google Reader and signed up to received my friend’s shared RSS entries. I started getting all these posts from feminist blogs (Jezebel, Feministe, etc). My initial reaction was not good – I don’t take kindly to being declared an enemy of women or even “part of the problem” when I feel like I’m a good guy.

I started debating with my friend about the merits of the movement, and while I still don’t like terms like “rape culture,” I’ve definitely come around to seeing that there is (still) a very prevalent problem with how men view and treat women. I believe the symptoms are subtle yet pervasive.

That’s about as far as I’ve gotten. My friend has been sensitive to feminist issues for probably 6 years now (he ended up breaking up with the feminist but kept reading the blogs), and even he says he can’t always tell if something is right or wrong. The feminist blogs are, in some ways, outrage machines, churning out example after example of ways men marginalize women. Mostly they’re right, sometimes they’re not, and my friend and I still debate what we consider to be the gray areas.

That’s as far as I’ve gotten. I still tend to err on the side of being a typical man. It’s hard to undo the gender stereotypes that seem not only ingrained from birth, but are backed up by what feels like an evolutionary drive to dominate at all costs. But I’m working on it.

I don’t think my generation will be the one to get it right, unfortunately. But my initial knee jerk “this is all baloney” reaction to the basic ideas present in this thread has faded. I’m posting this not to pat myself on the back or anything, but as the father of two young girls now, I want to say, don’t give up, women! I don’t want my girls to go through the same crap. Change is hard, but there’s hope, I think.

244

I guess we’ll have to disagree. I’ve read these so called primers on “rape culture” and I really don’t agree with it or believe that this culture celebrates rape. I think a lot of people interpret things as “rape-y” (not my word) when to me they’re fairly innocuous, but again, I think it’s just a question of not seeing eye to eye…

245

I think some of the men in this thread are arguing too strenuously from a hypothetical point of view or over-generalizing from experiences that are not necessarily representative.

I’m 42 years old, and I’ve never had occasion to be offended by a woman’s reaction to me. I’ve never heard of any male friend of mine taking such offense. Certainly, there are people with legitimate organic disabilities in their processing of social information. But if you’re a man with ordinary social skills, it’s entirely possible to go through life being conscious to try not to frighten, offend, or intrude upon women, and to recognize when you’ve inadvertently done so and apologize.

Moreover, this isn’t some exotic skill that one learns for approaching women; I follow those same guidelines when interacting with men: Don’t be pushy or rude. It’s true that what a man would consider rude may differ from what a woman would, and one takes that into account, just as one takes into account whether one is interacting with friends, peers, or strangers and comports oneself accordingly. There aren’t rules or easy answers, and context is important.
I’m not shy or self-effacing; I’m just thoughtful about how I deal with people and mindful of how I may be coming across to them. A normal guy should not have much trouble with this, so the concern that one is going to be offended by a woman reacting with fear or hostility really shouldn’t ever come into play.

246

And sometimes being polite still isn’t good enough and women get shot for not being willing to give a man their phone number.

247

There were a handful of times in college when I went up to talk to a woman and could tell she seemed afraid or nervous. Just saying ‘sorry, I didn’t mean to scare you’ really was all it took to make them not afraid anymore, and I think all of them (I think this happened 3 times) walked and talked with me for several minutes after that. In fact a couple of them even told me where they lived because when I was walking with them they’d say ‘it was nice talking to you, this is where I live’ and then go inside. However if they had blown me off after apologizing I would’ve just walked off (I’ve done that, walked away after being blown off).

So again, just having decent social skills and showing you understand the other person has boundaries, wants and fears is pretty much the most important thing.

I know some women worry about or loathe being approached or interacted with. But I’ve also met a lot who seemed to enjoy the attention. Just as long as you can pick up on hints and know when to walk away.

248

:rolleyes: I know you said you are out, Quartz, but I just have to share. My brother is the family counselor at a domestic violence shelter, and routinely speaks to prisoners and/or domestic violence groups about the effects of DV on children as witnesses.

As a female public defender, I retorted to him once that it wasn’t only females who were the victims of domestic violence. And he quickly disavowed me of my, “domestic violence as an equal opportunity crime,” philosphy.

Of course not all men are rapists any more than the notion that all men hit their SO’s. BUT just as 99% of rapists are male, so are 95% of domestic perpatrators. Period. Full stop.

I’m sorry if that hurts your feelings. But tough.

249

I think it depends. I get queasy watch the scene in Gone With the Wind where Rhett carries a kicking Scarlett upstairs - queasier when the next morning she is purring like a kitten. Or when I read certain romance novels where rape is a necessary component to the romance - either perpetrated by the hero or the heroine needs to be rescued in order to complete the romance and tie her to her hero.

I get nervous when I hear phrases like “her lips said no, but her eyes said yes.”
I don’t judge people who choose to participate in S&M or bondage - your kinks are your kinks and hey…, but there is certainly a component there that makes me uncomfortable about the larger issue and the perception.

There are a lot of times where we - we women even - romanticize rape. There is a lot of playacting during trust sex that lacking the trust component would be REALLY disturbing - and a lot of people who don’t understand the difference between playacting, fantasy and reality.

250

Not true at all; according to various studies on the subject men and women are equally likely to abuse each other. Men are much less likely to report it, and less likely to even call it abuse, and the legal system is much more lenient with women than men on the matter but the actual rates of violence are roughly the same.

251

Hey…um…so I’m a guy. And occasionally, I’ve complained about the “women distrusting men” situation…not like, at random times, but when it came up in conversations, and…I get it now. Sorry.

252

Thank you for that.

253

Could you cite one of those studies for me?

Given the relative physical size and power differential between your average man and average women (among other factors) … I find that hard to believe.

254

I don’t think a man should have to keep any special rules for dealing with women. He should not rape, molest or assault a woman. Those things are wrong. But all those extra rules, (Did Lynn say if she is looking out a window, he should not approach??) are not right.

If women are uncomfortable around men, that is our problem. I was nearly assaulted once, (actually twice) and it made me uncomfortable taking my night walks. I even started carrying a gravity knife (illegal)*. When a man passes me and says “Hey, how’s it going?” and it is 10:30 pm and we are the only two people on the street, I wanna freaking kill him! But it is my problem. Not his unless he actually attempts to assault me.

I still go out with my friends. I go to raunchy night clubs and I wear low cut shirts and tight clothes, and if a man thinks I am ‘asking for it’ that is his problem. If I am nervous around certain men who have not assaulted me in any way, that is my problem.

There shouldn’t be a different set of rules for men and women. If a women can feel comfortable approaching a man who is looking out a window, he can do the same.

*my gravity knife was taken from me by a nice police man that explained to me why it was illegal.

255

IIRC Der Trihs is correct that it isn’t 95%. I’m not sure it is as equal as 50% though.

256

Tom, Wesley and pedescribe thank you very much for posting.

This thread is starting to have the opposite effect on me than what the men, who don’t get it, want.

When I was in the pool today I was ready to go to the hot tub so I looked over to see how full/empty it was. There were about 7 men and no other women. Normally I’d just go anyway, and not even care that I was the only woman. Today was different. I wasn’t worried for my safety at all but I looked at them and wondered what they would think about me joining them. I ended up feeling really intimidated and did not go. I waited till some of them had left and there was another woman.

I believe the far majority of men are good and would never hurt a woman but this thread is making me feel like it’s actually worse than I thought.

It was nice to come home and read that three men really do understand.

257

That isn’t an extra rule. That’s just being well mannered. You don’t approach strangers when they are busy doing other things - including lost in thought looking out a window - for idle chit chat.

Its just when its a man breaking into a woman’s public transportation reading time, it usually is - in my experience - an effort to make a date. Which some people find to be intimidating because of the potential “you bitch, you think you are too good to give me your phone number” outcome.

(And I’ve been there myself. Its a unique feeling to try and let a guy down politely with “oh, I’m flattered, but I’m married” to get immediately called a fucking bitch and told you should wear a ring to keep from leading men on - because you know - if I wasn’t married, I’d just jump into bed with any random stranger on the bus…its only the married state that keeps that from happening.)

258

It was only the 50% that I found dubious.

259

Oh, I actually agree. That’s what I meant. It should be the exact same deal for men or women…bad manners. Not some kind of thing that men can’t do because they may be molesters. You see what I’m getting at? Extra rules = things men shouldn’t do because women may mistake them for being molesters.

260

I have to disagree. I think there are things that are ok for a woman to do but not a man. I’ve had strange women come up to me and say something like “oh I love your shoes!” and I don’t blink an eye. Because I’m pretty confident that she really does like my shoes and is probably wondering where she can get them. If a man does that it’s for a different reason. He’s looking for something to talk about. In the right situation, there’s nothing wrong with that.

If a woman approached me on a dark road and asked for the time, I’d be slightly more alert but I’d give her the time. If a strange man approached me on a dark road and asked for the time, I’d say “sorry I don’t have a watch” and keep walking.

I can understand how a man with no ill intentions might have their feelings hurt. It’s not a fun thing to be blamed when you’re blameless.

Instead of thinking about the woman “stupid bitch, she needs to get over herself” think “ok, that woman has likely been molested, abused or raped and is trying to make sure it doesn’t happen again”.