Point 1: I never “celebrated” anything. I merely responded to a request for a cite on the fact that many babies around the world are toilet trained much earlier than in the US.
Point 2: My views are not contradictory, as you suggest. My views are always developing as I learn more, but I would say that encouraging a child’s development (i.e. their independence a) away from mom’s body as a source of nourishment/security at a certain age and b) away from diapers by a certain age) is important. Just as encouraging them to speak, read, write, count, etc. is important.
P.S. May I ask, what “similar information about another issue” you think I am ignoring?
Heh. Nowhere in any of the information I read about early toilet training and the elimination communication method did I see anything about tying a child to a potty chair. If you read the links more carefully, you will see that the method has nothing to do with abuse or force.
[QUOTE=AerynSun]
I looked into the infant potty training thing, thinking, “What a cool idea!” Well, as far as I could tell, it isn’t training the child, it’s training the caretaker. If that works for you, fantastic, but don’t pretend that it is equivalent to the child recognizing the urge to go, and being able to control it until reaching the toilet. I’m sure some children are psychologically and phsyically capable of all that around 2, but some may need to get closer to 4 before they get it all coordinated. Before they are about 18 months, they don’t even have self-awareness, for goodness sake!
[quote]
If early potty ttraining is not the equivalent to the child recognizing the urge to go, and being able to control it until reaching the toilet, then how do you explain the comment from Dr. Barton D. Schmitt, a professor of pediatrics at the University of Colorado School of Medicine and an expert in bowel and bladder problems, that more than 50 percent of children around the world are toilet trained at about 1 year of age?
Heh. Nowhere in any of the information I read about early toilet training and the elimination communication method did I see anything about tying a child to a potty chair. If you read the links more carefully, you will see that the method has nothing to do with abuse or force.
If early potty ttraining is not the equivalent to the child recognizing the urge to go, and being able to control it until reaching the toilet, then how do you explain the comment from Dr. Barton D. Schmitt, a professor of pediatrics at the University of Colorado School of Medicine and an expert in bowel and bladder problems, that more than 50 percent of children around the world are toilet trained at about 1 year of age?
That doesn’t parse. Just because these children are supposedly “toilet trained” doesn’t mean that they are controlling the process. The methods used on young children consist mainly of the caretaker recognizing that the child needs to relieve himself and taking the child to the toilet based upon the child’s cues. It is only after the point that the child becomes self-aware that they are able to take themselves to the toilet or tell their caretaker to do so. Even some children at the age of 3 or 4 don’t quite have this skill entirely mastered, and they have “accidents” because they forget to pay attention to their bodily signals. To think that 1 year olds have mastery over their toileting needs in any fashion which would qualify as what we in western society refer to as “toilet trained” is a pipe dream.
The “Similar information” is that you could just as readily do a search and find out similar information about breastfeeding as it is practiced around the world. It would generally contradict the viewpoints you’re promoting here.
I also don’t think it’s quite objective to say that when you provide information about your viewpoint, you’re “providing cites.” When we provide information, we’re “swarming” and silencing the masses who want to disagree but are afraid to.
As for encouraging independence. Human beings depend on their parents or other caregivers for a variety of things. They gain independence slowly, over a period of years. They give up different things at different ages. Kids give up some things as babies, other things as adolescents. We don’t always know what is the “right” age for certain things. Well, most of us claim we don’t.
Despite a wealth of information suggesting that human weaning would naturally occur between the ages of 2 years to 7 years (no one is sure about the upper end of the range, but I believe there is considerable agreement on the lower end), you have decided that it is better if the child weans sooner. You have decided that breastfeeding (relying on a parent for nutrition or comfort through nursing) means that the child is being tied to infantile behavior and is thwarted in the naturally-occurring process of growing independence. You have claimed that promoting early weaning is inherently as desirable as teaching a child to walk.
You can push lots of things earlier. You can take away security objects, you can encourage using a cup instead of a bottle, you can start solids earlier, you can ask a kid to cook his own meals and do his own shopping, you can ask him to move out as soon as the law allows. Why is this an inherently better way to raise children? Does it truly promote independence? Do children raised this way become adults that are “better” in some measurable way, compared to adults who were allowed to be “independent” at a slower pace? What has led you to infuse early weaning with these powers?
But you also mentioned the mean age of potty training in the world. There are cultures that do it many different ways. One of the ways the mean age in the world is lowered is because some cultures find it appropriate to tie an infant to a potty.
I have been involved in several discussions on the board about breastfeeding issues and have read a lot of stuff online about it, as well as all the information I have gained from reading and life experience. I am aware of how breastfeeding is practiced around the world. I have read all your (and other’s) posts and looked at all your links and done research of my own. So why do you say I am ignoring it? Because I don’t come to the same conclusion as you do? That’s not ignoring, that is disagreeing.
The question that started the thread, “is breastfeeding appropriate in certain public places?” is not a question of fact, it is a question of opinion. What might be appropriate in a small villiage in India might not be appropriate at a Starbucks in suburban Maryland. That is what the discussion is about. It’s about people offering their different viewpoints on the question. I appreciate your input, I find everyone’s viewpoints very interesting and informative.
Other than the anecdote you supplied, I found no mention of this in my research. What you are basically saying is that a portion of that 50% of potty trained infants were potty trained through abuse/force? If you have a cite, I would be interested to see it.
If you read the information about elimination communication methods, there is absolutely no abuse/force used.
I think babies are a lot smarter than we realize. If you live in a culture where disposable diapers are readily available and 99% of people use them, and the norm is to not start training until 2 or 3, than that is what you’re going to be likely to subscribe to.
Heck, I didn’t even know you could potty train kids younger than 2 before I read it here on this board, and then did my own research. If you don’t even know it’s possible, then you’re not even going to try it. But it seems to work in other cultures, so I find it to be an interesting option.
I had a co-worker from China who said that it was common for children to be tied to potties at large daycare centers. There were too many kids and not enough teachers to do the diaper thing.
She said she was getting a lot of flack from her Chinese in-laws because she and her husband were potty training their son the lazy American way.
Hey, Birdgirl, I have an honest question for you. First of all, the above quote beautifuly illustrates that you are not a parent. Kids are not some sucking parasite that one tries to shed as soon as possible and leave behind like a bad haircut. Believe it or not, for most of us when we have kids, we want to do everything we can for them, they become the focus of our lives, and rightly so. The idea that one should consentrate on “getting their body back” is laughable. That is not to say that kids become the focal point of our lives to the complete exclusion of our selves, but one’s perspective does change, a lot. Much of what you seem to be railing about is not even a fleeting thought when you are a parent.
Now, my question. I have seen you here and in other threads with pretty strong opinions about parenting issues. You are not a parent, and frankly, from meeting you, I get the idea that you don’t particularly want to be one. Why do you have such forceful opinions on issues that, to be honest, don’t concern you? You seem to try and speak as an authority on subjects that you have no experience with. This is not a slam or insult, your choice to have or not have children is your own, and I support you fully which ever way you choose, but why do you hold forth so viehamently on situations that you know nothing about (having not experienced them yourself)?
Back to the OP, I think I have a solution to the problem. If a woman wants to breast-feed at a Starbucks, she first shows her tits to all the patrons. Then they take a simple hand-vote. If they’re nice & perky, she gets the green light. But if they look like fried eggs hanging on a nail, it’s thumbs down.
It’s nyctea scandiaca. I know it’s hard to spell/pronounce, but you can just copy/paste.
The above quote beautifuly illustrates that you are not a woman/mother.
I have thoughts and opinions on many things which do not affect me directly. So do most people on this board and most people in the world, including you I am sure.
Because I am not a parent yet, I can’t have an opinion on child-related issues? Well then, you are not a woman so you can’t have an opinion on woman-related issues, OK?
P.S. And yes I want to become a parent one day when I am married to the right person and am financially stable enough to do so.
One more thing… the same could be said about you. You’ve never had an infant before have you?
I have taken care of many children in my life. I babysat for years. I worked at a day-care center. I have many relatives who used to be infants, who I have cared for, and who have had infants, which I have cared for.
Have you ever stopped to think that maybe my interest in parenting issues is because I want to learn all I can about them so I am better-prepared for when I have children someday? Afterall, parenting is the most important thing you can do in life, right? So why not be as informed and prepared as you can be before you do it?
I have…two of them actually. And does that make me believe I know better than you about kids? Not really. But the fact that you have this habit of posting about kids/kid issues a great deal and then putting your fingers in your ears shouting LALALALALALALALA whenever anybody who does have kids differs with you makes me think I might.
I have been to a doctor’s office before. I have worked in a doctor’s office before. I have many relatives who have been to a doctor before. I have a neighbor who is a doctor. I’ve been around doctors a lot. I read articles about healthcare. I can post a gazillion links about healthcare/operations and other doctor centered issues.
Doesn’t mean I’m going to tell a doctor how to operate on one of his patients and argue with him about how he chooses to operate based on what I’ve read. Until I go to medical school and become a doctor I’ll leave that to those who have.
In regards to your other comments, I never said I knew more than you or you didn’t know more than me. I’m here to learn and discuss. Just because I don’t have kids doesn’t mean I cant learn about and discuss them, does it Aries? And just because you are a mom and you tell me your knowledge/thoughts/experiences/opinions, does that mean I have to automatically agree? I don’t think so.
That is what I like about this board, we’re all here to learn and discuss, and we don’t have to agree. I like hearing different viewpoints. If you don’t like hearing my viewpoints, then don’t read my posts.
Seriously, his basis for this statement is pretty skimpy. In his article in Contemporary Pediatrics, which is cited in your New York Times column, he makes this statement and cites “Cultural relativity of toilet training readiness: A perspective from East Africa,” an article in *Pediatrics * from 1977. Now that’s hardly definitive.
It also does not address the definition of “toilet training” being used. The very article you cite with his quotation follows it immediately with the statement, “While such early training may involve more parental than child training . . .”
