nyctea scandia’, I’m not disagreeing with you that breastfeeding is a bodily funtion in the sense that it involves a body (actually two) and a function (feeding). But, I’m still not seeing your point. Are you saying that since it is a “bodily function” that it should not be done in a public space? Eating - the adult kind with fork and knife - involves bodily funtions as well. And yet, here we are like a bunch of loonies with these things called restaurants where people sit right next to each other and eat…out in public. And some of them make slurping noises while they do it, too.
Oh and my clockwork orange joke went over like a lead balloon, eh? :smack:
Right. And if the nursing mother is not using a bottle to feed? I seem to remember my lactation consultant advising that part of the problem I was having with my daughter latching on (during the entire time I tried breastfeeding her) may be attributed to nipple confusion between the bottle and/or pacifier and the breast. It’s generally advisable that children with latch-on difficulties be raised solely on the breast to alleviate this “confusion.” I think it has to do with the fact that bottle nipples and pacifiers can only simulate the breast but only to the extent that an immutable form of rubber or silicone can simulate flesh and fat.
Why should anyone put more weight on the attitude of someone who’s offended by seeing breastfeeding in public (and who’s only concern is their puritanical righteousness) than on the recommendations of her lactation consultant, who’s concern is the well-being of mother and child?
Pacifiers and bottles don’t come with the package, but breasts do. Seems pretty simple to me.
My apologies, Jeff. I must have misread something here and jumped to conclusions. I sometimes mix up posters and their posts, too. Getting back to the sucking for comfort thing, all I was trying to say – granted, elusively – was that it seems to me that the human nipple should be considered the superior choice of all the things babies might suck for comfort. Pacifiers and bottle nipples are inferior for one of the reasons I stated above. Thumb-sucking is inferior because it can’t be controlled or easily stopped resulting in greater risk of exposure to bacteria, misalignment of developing teeth, and unnecessary dependence. I mean, the breast is not readily available 24/7, but the thumb is always there, ya know?
Once infants are mobile, they’re putting all sorts of things in their mouths. I’d like to think the breast is one of the purest things that could go there.
What you’re conflating here is the concept of mother-nuture with adult sexuality.
I hope to god my daughter remembers suckling at my breasts. I hope she remembers being cuddled, and snuggled, and caressed, while she curled up into a five year old fetal ball, and let her eyes roll back, and for a moment got to escape the struggle of learning and always being yelled at for doing stuff, and the exhaustion of play. I want her to remember because when she has babies, I want her to at least consider offering her own breasts and milk to her babies to feed and comfort them. And, I hope to god if she chooses to or needs to bottlefeed that she will cuddle and snuggle her baby while feeding, and not prop its bottle with a blanket while she strolls through the mall or grocery store, as I have seen so many times.
I want her to remember because mothering behaviors among primates are learned behaviors - and no matter how much we try to pretend otherwise, we are primates. And because if she remembers favorably what I gave to her, she may wish to give it to her own children.
And the reality is, by the time she weaned, she was only requesting to nurse every few days, or once a week, usually when she saw her baby sister doing it. When she did nurse, she only did it for a minute or so. But she needed it. Something about it was needed in her life, because if I turned her down, she’d start sucking her thumb throughout the day…and she was not, and has never been, a pacifier or thumb-sucking child. I preferred to give her what she asked for, rather than refusing something she clearly had need of. Did I find it slightly ooky? Yes, as a matter of fact I did. But SHE did not. So I set my own concepts of what was appropriate aside, and comforted my child. Eventually, she quit asking, and the process was so slow and gradual that I cannot tell you when she last nursed. There was no trauma, I didn’t have to lie to her and tell her my breasts were broken, or refuse her something she considered vital to her world. Just one day…she didn’t ask anymore. (Until the youngest baby was born, but that’s another story, and yes, by that time I did tell her no.)
What is a “mommy-type?” C. Everett Koop? The World Health Organization? The American Academy of Pediatricians? I’m afraid that it’s not just the Army of Mommies who believe breastfeeding is natural and normal, and chould not be confined to homes or other places where no one can see.
I am not sure what your methodology is for determining how many people are silenced by their deep fear of “the swarm.” It’s unfortunate that those cowering masses have given up without even trying, because frankly I think their fear is misplaced. Do you see a swarm here? I see people willing to discuss the issue and dispel what they believe is ignorance.
I do know that Anderson Cooper’s CNN poll on this which I think was done just this very week, showed that better than 70% of people there said public breastfeeding doesn’t disturb them. To my knowledge, no one’s vote there is going to subject them to discussion, debate, or swarming, so one would expect people to be more forthcoming than you say is possible on this board. I can’t compare the demographic to voters there to the people who are posting to this thread and/or the legions of people who are silently supporting you because you’re one of the few brave enough to speak up. However, I find it hard to believe that they’re so vastly different. All this to say, I’d bet you’re in the minority.
Minority opinions have credibility, of course, but when you combine that with the realities about breastfeeding and its benefits, the small amount of “nudity” involved, and a host of other things covered in this thread, and I think I’d come down on the side that people who are bothered by it are probably going to have to find a way to avert their eyes and cope with their feelings as best they can. In short, I feel that it’s your problem, not society’s problem. If that makes me a “swarmer” or a “mommy-type,” well, that’s unfortunate.
I actually have little problem with a fifteen month old breastfeeding - but I know other people would think you are being rude - and I really can’t see why you’d need to be rude in that situation.*
Just because other people *think * that nursing is public is rude doesn’t automatically make the act or the person doing the act rude. And I don’t feel the need to make my child “get by” on crackers or water or whatever just because there might be someone who will be offended by us nursing.
There are people who are offended at the sight of a mixed race couple. Should those people break up so as not to offend anyone when they are out in public holding hands or just basically being girlfriend and boyfriend?
*I think people who take their four year olds to $50 a plate restaurants are being rude. *
I see nothing particularly rude about bring a 4 year old to an expensive restaurant as long as that child is well behaved and doesn’t disupt my meal. If they are yelling and throwing things, I would be just as disgruntled at McDonald’s with that behavior as I would be at Chez Lafitte’s. In a situation like that, the child would be disrupting the other patrons from enjoying a pleasant dining experience and conversations with their dining companions. I fail to see a correlation with breastfeeding - which involves no noise (and my son has never made slurping sounds because to do so would break the suction), no foul odors, no viewing of the actual bodily secretions (like say if I was sitting around with a big boogie hanging out of my nose).
*See, people raise their kids in just about a zillion ways. *
Yes, yes, they do. You parent your kids and I’ll parent mine and if we happen to cross paths and you give me a snide look because I’m nursing my 15 month old (thank goodness he wasn’t an early walker otherwise I would’ve had to wean him, per your rules) in Starbucks, at the mall or where ever, so be it. That’s your problem, not mine. And for me, I’ve got far too much to concern myself with than toddlers being nursed.
Jeff, when I told you that my son refused the pacifier and would fling it out of his mouth, you responded with “Sure, because he knows that doing so will get him the real thing”. I should’ve made you aware that we tried introducing the pacifier to Donovan when was about 6 weeks old. He wanted absolutely nothing to do with it and actually, trying to force it upon him would make him more upset. He never took to it. Eventually, he did start sucking his thumb which has been another source of comfort to him.
At 6 weeks, I don’t think he was trying to manipulate us into giving him “the real thing”. Instead, he just knew he didn’t like it.
Where did I ever say breastfeeding was not natural and normal? I just don’t think it’s appropriate to do in certain public places if at all possible. There are many bodily functions that are natural and normal, and most people try to avoid doing them in public, if possible.
Like I have said many times so far, if I were breastfeeding, I would choose to avoid baring my breasts in public if at all possible. It almost seems that the public breastfeeding advocates are public exhibitionists, like they want to bare their breasts, just because they can.
Some human activities are normal and natural and many people prefer to keep them private. For example, PDA (public displays of affection). I personally choose to keep this private. And I personally do not like seeing people smooching and groping each other in public. Just not appropriate.
Breastfeeding is a bodily function where a normally-covered gland is removed from clothing to excrete a bodily fluid into the mouth of another human. Personally, I would rather keep that a private activity. Personally, I would rather not see a stranger’s mammary gland excreting bodily fluid in public. Does this make me ignorant? No. It just makes my opinion different than yours.
Trishka, I think we are on the same page, actually.
i.e. It shouldn’t matter what I think, you should do what you want.
BUT…
I should also be free to send you a dirty look. (Which, honestly, I won’t…sending dirty looks is rude, and I’ve seen far too many two years olds breastfeed to be shocked into giving one).
i.e. if you are going to make a choice like breastfeeding a toddler in public - which makes some people feel ooky (whether right or wrong) and is not commonly done, don’t be surprised when people look at you funny or think you are being rude.
And if you are going to breastfed a toddler, or have a nurse in (neither which is discreet - unless your toddler is small and not yet walking - in which case “toddler” doesn’t apply - I’ve never seen a toddler discreetly nurse - though its possible yours does. A nurse in, by definition, isn’t discreet), you loose the whole “its done discreetly, why do people have a problem” defense.
(funny you should mention the interracial thing, we are a multiracial family - I’m used to stares over my choices).
And yet over and over and over and over again it’s been demonstrated that you do NOT see a bare breast while a woman is breastfeeding an infant. What you may possibly see is the back of the child’s head.
I would agree with this statement. The American Academy of Pediatrics recomends breastfeeding until 24 months. During this time however a parent should have introduced solid foods the child and should be working to ween from the breast by 2. It seems to me that if it can’t be done discreetly with an older child it should not be done- especially if the child is able to eat solid foods.
I am not sure that I understand breastfeeding beyond 2 years. By that age there are different ways to bond with and comfort a child and I can’t help but wonder if continued breastfeeding becomes more about the mother’s needs than the child’s. My wife has breastfed our two children (still breasting feeding one) so we are big advocates, but after a certain age, which may differ for each child, I find it inappropriate.
Why is it weird? Lactation, digestion, blood cell formation, tumor growth, maggot infestation–they’re all just biological processes, and they all serve a purpose. Biology isn’t beautiful, and it isn’t gross. It just is. It strikes me as more than a bit weird to claim that some biology is beautiful and some is nasty.
It also strikes me as more than a bit arrogant to essentially claim that “my opinion of what’s inappropriate is perfectly fine, but your opinon of what’s inappropriate is just a stupid hangup, so everybody has to live by my definition.” It’s that whole “my shit is stuff, and your stuff is shit” thing. Like I said in a previous breastfeeding thread, we need to either all be a bit sensitive to other people’s preferences, or we need to all get over the fact that other people are going to occasionally violate our preferences.
I think you’re misunderstanding the development of the human mind here.
Babies are wired to desire to suckle for comfort, for food, for reassurance…some babies will want to do this more, and some less; some will lose this instinct sooner, and some later - but every baby is wired to want to suckle. Suckling lowers a baby’s blood pressure. From what I have observed, it even reduces the child’s perception of pain. (And by the way, this has also been backed up with a medical study, and found to be true.)
Why is it, if a breastfed child learns that 'the proper response to every negative sensation and emotion is eating…that babies who are breastfed are less likely to be obese as adults?
Where is the evidence that breastfed babies become the people who comfort-eat? I would think that it’s the people who are comforted with food (“Here, sweetie, I’m sorry you skinned your knee, have an ice cream cone!”) that are more likely to view food as comfort.
Besides, we’re not talking about breastfeeding a 6 year old for being disappointed that a friend doesn’t want to play with her, for goodness’ sake. We’re talking about infants or toddlers, with little or no ability to reason, to rationalise, to understand the concept of time, or waiting, or other peoples’ feelings. There is only ‘now’. Naturally, as these abilities and understandings develop, then the child may reasonably be asked to wait, when circumstances warrant.
Actually, this is inaccurate: it is the WHO that recommends breastfeeding until the age of 2 years (minimum). The AAP recommends breastfeeding for at least 12 months, and “as long thereafter as is mutually desired.”
I disagree with your use of “should”. Why should the parent be working toward weaning the child? It isn’t doing any harm. The child cannot be forced to breastfeed (and any woman who has ever been bitten on the nipple by a struggling child knows exactly why this is so). Where does this “should” come from? Why “should” the child be weaned? Suppose it will emotionally traumatise the child at 2…why not…2 years and 3 months? Or 2 years and 6 months? What is so magical about an arbitrary date on the calendar?
I’m sorry you find it inappropriate, and you and your wife will, and have, and do, feed your children as you consider appropriate. However, please apply your ‘shoulds’ to your own family. They don’t belong in mine.
As for the concept of breastfeeding being “more for the mother’s needs than the child’s”, I have no idea what you’re talking about, unless you mean that reserving breastfeeding as an option in my mother’s-bag-of-tricks when a child is hurt, or overtired but cannot go to sleep, or whatever…is somehow a bad thing. It’s certainly not sexual. Toddlers are about the least sexual things to have touching my breasts I can think of. Too acrobatic.
Well in some fairness to nyctea scandiaca, it’s also been demonstrated over and over and over again that the situation in the OP does not involve an infant.
No harm? To me, a 2 or 3-year-old walking, talking kid wanting to suck on my breast all the time would be harmful/annoying/inconvenient to me.* It may also result in the child becoming too dependant on mom’s physical self for comfort instead of developing other coping mechanisms on their own.
It seems to me, little kids of this age want to start being big boys and big girls. They want to wear big kid underwear and want to go on the big kid potty and eat big kid food and do big kid activities. Nursing at 2 or 3 doesn’t seem like a big kid activity to me. Seems like babying to me.
It seems to me, to keep lactating for years would be annoying and uncomfortable. I would be glad to get it over as soon as possible. I can’t imagine having swollen leaky breasts for 3 years straight. <shiver>
I addressed the thing about “mommy types” because that is the group to whom you seem to have attributed breastfeeding advocacy. I have no idea what that term is supposed to mean. I assume it isn’t derisive, but it’s confusing. What is a mommy-type. What makes someone a mommy-type? Anyone who has a certain attitude about breastfeeding?
I am not a breastfeeding expert, but the nursing toddlers I know do not want to “suck the breast all the time.” I don’t know what the correlation between nursing and delayed “big kid” urges is, but I’d be surprised (again, based solely on anecdotal evidence) that it’s high if it even exists at all. Do you have more information to share about that?
Finally, it would be very unusual for a woman nursing a toddler to have uncontrolled let-down or swollen breasts. Of course, this also goes with the decreased demand which is normal for an older infant or toddler. I suppose if the toddler was behaving as you described, demanding nursing all day long, it’s entirely possible that leaky breasts would be a regular problem. However, I’m not aware that’s a common nursing pattern among the preschool set.
