Women push for public breastfeeding policy at Starbucks, stage "nurse-in"

The BBQ Pit
161

Yes, nursing a toddler can be annoying. This is why (by the way) the AAP says “as long as mutually desirable”. It’s a partnership. If both partners aren’t happy, then something needs to change. But if both partners are happy, why should it involve any other person, so long as it’s not done with the intent of annoying observers?

And sometimes a 2 or 3 year old wants the chance to just be a baby again. And if the mother is okay with that…? Of course little kids want to grow up and be big kids. But I see no reason to say “Fine, you’re 2, you never get to act like a little kid again. By god, you’re TWO already.” A two year old is a baby. Not an infant, but a baby. A 3 year old is a baby. By four…not so much. But a four year old may still want to regress briefly, once or twice a day, and get a break from having to grow up.

As for the ‘swollen leaky breasts for 3 years’ thing, that doesn’t fall into the experience of any extended-nursing mother I know. After the first oh, maybe 4-6 months, the milk supply is completely stable, leaking virtually never happens, unexpected letdowns virtually never happen, and engorgement is only an issue if the baby doesn’t nurse for an excessive length of time (for me, with a 12 month old, that would be more than 6 hours).

I’m talking from experience here. You…I suspect…are talking from what you think it would be like. I’m telling you it’s not like that. A 2 year old can learn that “we only nurse at naptime and bedtime”. A 2 year old can learn not to hoik up mom’s shirt in public. This is simple manners. Weaning is not required. It is certainly an option, and most women obviously choose it.

I don’t get what the rush is, in our society, to turn tiny little humans into adults. 2 year olds do not have to be potty trained, rushed off to preschool, weaned, and taught to be independent. They are babies. They will only be babies for a little while, and they have another 70-odd years to be grown up. And they WILL grow up. 5 year old girls do not have to be dressed like little sluts (but god help me if I can find anything different for my kids to wear at Target, because that’s all they sell). 11 year olds do not have to wear makeup and heels and carry Prada purses to school. They are children. They have the luxury of being children. They don’t have to go work in a mill somewhere, or sell sweets on street-corners. Why do we have to force them to be grown up so fast?

162

That study on obesity and breastfeeding has one glaring flaw. …

Adults now who were breastfed as babies were seldom “breastfed on demand” as is recommended now. Mom’s were much more encouraged to put babies on a schedule. Breastfeeding on demand (in our time and place - I know its common other places and was probably more common here in other times) is a relatively recent thing

It remains to be seen if that holds up with demand breastfeeding.

163

I’m rather ambivalent about this particular story.

In general, I think that breastfeeding is such a great benefit, and is so rare in the U.S., that it is reasonable to have laws allowing it, even if it makes people uncomfortable. When you are desperately trying to get women to breastfeed their babies, the message, “Breastfeeding is wonderful, natural, and normal, and you should do it . . . except where people can see you,” is really counterproductive.

Also, I think nursing mothers should be “allowed” to go out and be part of society. I know that being all but housebound for over a month (due to having a Foley catheter - not due to breastfeeding) almost drove me insane. Ironically, one of my first trips out of the house was to a Starbucks (I got decaf, btw), and I remember it well because it felt so damned wonderful to be out, like a normal person. Anyway, the only practical way to breastfeed and be able to go out in the first few months is to be able to nurse in public.

However, I do agree that older babies don’t have to nurse on demand, and I myself have used many a fistful of Cheerios to placate my one year old while we were out. And while I personally don’t see the big deal about nudity, when I did nurse in public I would make an effort not to show more than was necessary, because I realize it makes people uncomfortable.

Yet I think that part of the problem is that people are offended, not by actually seeing a naked breast, but by seeing a baby nursing. To me, “be discreet” means “don’t flash your nipples at passersby,” but for some people “be disreet” seems to mean, “make sure I can’t see your nursing baby at all,” or even “demonstrate that you understand what you are doing is shameful.”

Really. Look at the pictures linked in this thread. In most, there is zero breast exposure, just a baby’s head right in front of a mother’s breast area. If someone is asking that a mother go beyond that and drape a blanket over the baby and her chest, I think it indicates the person has a hangup about the *concept * of breastfeeding, and that shouldn’t be catered to.

164

Well no one can quite agree on exact timing but it is well known that the special nutritive value of breastmilk declines over time and that at a certain point it- from a dietary standard- breastmilk becomes unnecessary for the child’s development. Of course nutrition is not the only thing to be gained from breastfeeding- obviously there is the bond between mother and child and the health benefits for the mother.

I know that there is not agreement on this in the breastfeeding community but it is my personal belief that at a certain point of development in the child the bond between mother and child needs to change form and breastfeeding may not be the most appropriate expression of it. At what age? Depends on the child- but most children can be comforted in different ways than breastfeeding at 2-3 years old and I think that is a natural point that needs to be taken advantage of and the child needs to detach somewhat from the mother. Children progress through cycles of attachment and detachment from their parents as they develop into and come to recognize themselves as independent beings- I think weening from the breast is part of this. The child may be giving the signs but sometimes a parent needs to help with that detachment. Thus far I am not aware of any studies showing the development effects on children breastfed past 3 years old, so as parents we do have to feel our way around this.

I would never suggest that breastfeeding is a sexual thing for the mother. Never. I do think though that children develop a sense of their sexuality earlier than we think they do- they don’t think in adult terms and don’t think of sex as we do, but the seeds are there I think a child of 5 year or older definately needs to be off the breast.

165

See, that makes a difference. :slight_smile:

Thanks. The misunderstanding is understandable considering the topic.

166

ROTFLMAO :smiley: (Agrees w/Binarydrone)
Damn, is it humanly possible for us americans to get ANY more uptight?? Gawd… This is a non-issue; my wife breast-fed both our kids, very discreetly when public, and still got some glares! Do some research on the formula producing companies (esp. in the 50’s and 60’s), and their motives ($$$), then come back with an argument. :rolleyes:

167

Of course it becomes ‘unnecessary’. Strictly speaking, it’s ‘unnecessary’ from birth, as most babies do just fine on formula. However, the ‘nutritive value’ of breastmilk never vanishes. A toddler who consumes 6 oz of breastmilk will get at least as much ideal nutrition from it as he would get from 6 oz of cow’s milk, or follow-on formula. Except for the iron, okay, I’ll concede this. There is no dietary reason to remove breastmilk from the child’s diet until the child removes it himself. There are certainly nutritious alternatives, which everyone, even those who practice extended breastfeeding, offer.

If the child initiates the “detachment”, then I am all for it. But a great many nursing toddlers will rush off to explore the world (detach themselves) and then come back to mom to nurse (reattach) and do this many times a day. Now take away the nursing. What methods does such a child use to reattach? Or is it simply assumed he doesn’t need to anymore? Or shouldn’t need to?

It’s not that you and I disagree. I want my children to explore their world. When they are ready. And to wean when they are ready. This has not fallen within the limits you consider acceptable, but so what? Everyone who meets my children thinks they’re delightful, normal, ordinary kids. No one has mentioned any concern about behavioral damage, over-attachment problems, obesity problems, comfort-eating problems, or any other problems…they’re just normal kids.

I’m glad your children, so far, have been willing to go along with your expectations. I hope the child your wife is nursing right now doesn’t turn out to be the one who absolutely is traumatised by the very thought of his nummies being taken away by the age of 2, because then…well, you’d have to make a choice between forcing him to grow up for his own good (or to meet your expectations)…or changing your mind about what is “acceptable”.

168

Chotii,

At what age, if the child never initiates detatchment from the breast, should the mother (assuming she is fine with extended breastfeeding), initiate it? Is it ok, if the situation is mutually acceptable to mother and child to continue to breastfeed at five? (an aquaintence of mine was still breastfeeding her five year old). How about seven? Ten? Fourteen? Twenty? If the child continues to suckle, mom probably will continue to produce milk.

169

I have never heard of such a situation first-hand. Of course all of us have heard of “that 12 year old whose mother still nursed him”, etc., but first-hand, I’ve never heard of a child going beyond 7, and the vast majority seem to self-wean between 2 1/2 and 4. For one thing, as the child grows, the shape of the head and jaw change. There comes a point when nutritive suckling becomes effectively impossible. Also, or so I’ve heard, the child will begin to forget how to suckle, due to changes in the brain. He might ask, but it will become painful eventually, or he will complain about ‘not getting any milk’. Certainly I would imagine most women would begin to initiate full detachment from the breast somewhere around 5 years, if it didn’t happen before then. For a very insecure, and slow-maturing child who was truly distraught by this, I might wait until 7. But the reality is, kids get too busy playing to nurse, they go to school, they go to dance class or judo class or soccer, they play with their friends in the neighborhood, they have breakfast, lunch, and dinner…and nursing gets forgotten. I cannot imagine a situation in which a child did not gradually begin to forget to ask, especially if the mother did not offer.

170

Anyone else reminded of a certain SNL skit?

171

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

7?!?!?

No wonder the kid would be insecure and low-maturing…he’s was still sucking his mom’s boob in the second grade!

Is this theoretical kid still in diapers too?

His nummies?? :eek:

Your breasts do not belong to anyone but you, dear.

172

6 hours?? :eek: How do you work?

2-year-olds don’t have to be potty trained. Neither do 3-year-olds, 5-year-olds, 10-year-olds. Hey if you like changing poopy diapers, more power to ya sista! That kid’s gonna do real well in preschool, I’ll tell ya – you can come in every few hours to nurse and change your first grader.

Isn’t becoming independent what growing up is all about? Most toddler behavior is about being independent. Heck, most child and teen behavior is about becoming independent. Becoming a Big Girl or Big Boy is what many lil’ ones strive to be. It’s something to be proud of, an accomplishment. If you don’t encourage or expect this progress, I suspect your child might have some issues later in life. Mommy’s not always going to be around, ya know.

173

Well, as it happens, I find staying at home with 4 children to be cheaper than going to work and paying for daycare and before/aftercare for 4 children. So I don’t work outside the home. However, if I did, I would pump at work to relieve engorgement, or my body would adapt to 9 hours instead of 6.

You’re allowing yourself to leap into the argumentum ad absurdum. A very large percentage of 2 year olds do not have the physical capacity to be fully potty trained. The ability develops over time. Most three year olds do - two of my daughters trained at 3 1/2, very very quickly (within a few days) when they were ready to do so. One of my daughters, who has lagged in physical skillls in all areas, was 4 when she trained (but there were other circumstances). Most children do want to become big boys and girls, and want to master these skills. However, taking a 2 year old and putting underwear on him doesn’t make him potty trained. He’ll be trained when he’s physically and emotionally ready. Putting pull-ups on him doesn’t make him trained, either. It just makes his accidents easier to clean up than if he were in cotton training pants. And such a child with either have lots of accidents, or be hovered over constantly by an adult, harrassing him every few minutes if he has to ‘go’. I found this to be a poor use of my time, and waited until my girls were ready, and could handle such things as going in to the bathroom, taking down their drawers, climbing onto the toilet, climbing off, etc., by themselves. Et voila, they learned. They were very proud of themselves, and they had very, very few accidents.

I do wish you’d refrain from attacking my children. It’s very low. You haven’t met them, and as far as I can tell from your posts, you either have none of your own, or have made different choices in raising yours, so you are not speaking from experience. I’m quite sure I’m making some mistakes in raising them, just as my parents made some with me, and no doubt yours made some with you, etc. Perhaps they’ll wind up in counselling because of it. But somehow I don’t think they’re going to be lying on some shrink’s couch someday going, “My mother loved me so much, she let me decide for myself when I was old enough to wean. Oh, the horror of it, I wish I’d just had a bottle and a pacifier like my cousin, so the day I turned two they would have just taken it away cold turkey and told me I was too old!”

If the worst thing my kids ever suffer is having been breastfed longer than most of society thinks is acceptable, then you know, I think they’ll do okay.

And regarding the OP? I have never gone to a nurse-in. I think they’re foolish.

174

Most parents and children would want to potty train as soon as possible, yes? Buying and changing diapers is not fun, just as being of walking/talking age and being in wet or poopy diapers is not comfortable. In a discussion on this very board, it was brought up that in some cultures, babies are potty trained by 1 year of age. (I’d like to find a cite for this, I will look). My brother and I were potty trained before 3. Kids that young do have the capacity to learn, if they are taught.

I am in no way attacking your children. You sound like a very caring mom, and your kids are lucky. We’re just having a discussion here about breast feeding (it began with the subject of public breastfeeding and now we’re talking about the age of weaning.) You seem to have some interesting comments to provide and I am a better person for knowing your side of the issue. Although the thought of nursing a 7-year-old boggles my mind. Heck, even the thought of nursing a 4-year-old boggles my mind. Don’t you ever want your body back? Don’t you want your children to become their own people and to stop treating your body like their on-demand snack bar/cuddly teddy bear?

175

I am in the ‘trying to get over it, but experiencing some difficulty’ camp.

I am not a case of arrested development (I’m not. I’m not not NOT!!!) but if a woman unleashes one, my inclination is to look. Can’t tell you why. But I am also programed to think that such looking is inappropriate, if not downright rude. Then the asshole in me screams “Why the fuck should I look away??? I’ll look where I want!!!” In the end, I look away, straining me neck muscles. Because nothing is as attractive as that which I am not supposed to look at.

Am I alone here??

176

There is something called ‘elimination timing’, which may be what you’re thinking of. However, I find the idea of having to be near a handy sink(!) or toilet all the time, eyes on the kid all the time, to make sure he doesn’t have an accident…well, not for me. Also, of course, with a verbal child (and we use cloth diapers), the child can inform the adult as soon after going as they themselves notice. So there’s no need to go around in a wet or poopy diaper - they tell an adult and get changed. There’s also a difference between knowing in advance that you have to go, and being able to wait until you get to the toilet - and knowing that you have gone. This is a developmental stage. I’ve a feeling that the kids who learn at a year…haven’t so much learned, as the adults around them are trained to take them to the toilet all the time. But please, if you have cites, I’m interested.

The thought of nursing somebody else’s 4 year old boggles my mind. But my own child…you understand, they don’t wake up one morning, having been a baby the day before, and suddenly they’re four. The tiny infant that nursed every couple of hours around the clock becomes the one year old who nurses 4 or 5 times a day who becomes the preschooler who nurses at naptime and bedtime, and eventually just at bedtime…and then only every couple of days…and then once a week. This is the natural progression. I have a hard time imagining a 7 year old nursing, too, and in fact I never have. But my oldest did gradually wean herself when she had just turned five.

And I think perhaps you misunderstand. A four or five year old can understand, “Not right now. Wait until your sisters are having their nap, and then we’ll cuddle for a few minutes and you can nurse.” This is a far cry from one’s body being an on-demand snack bar. A four year old can also understand things like “Mommy’s nursies hurt today. I’m sorry. Would you like to have a cup of juice or cow milk instead, and a cuddle?” But I never saw a reason to keep refusing, if she kept asking. For one thing, I knew it would only be a couple of minutes, and would be done on my terms. For some people, this would be too much. It was not too much for me. If it had been, I would have continued putting her off until she quit asking. (But I would not have done what my grandmother did, and try to blame the kid for asking, by shaming her and saying “You’re too old!” I was angry at my grandmother for doing that to my daughter. Rather, I put it in terms of my own body, my own comfort.)

However, I can imagine an ill-mannered child who had never been taught to wait, or respect his mother’s feelings, and how there might be serious resentment about this building up on the part of the mother. My daughters and I have had discussions like this: “This is my body. This is not your body. I am allowing you to do this. You must be considerate and gentle, and not hurt me, or that’s it, you’re through.” This has generally been met with wide eyes and very very gentle toddler hands and mouths. (The baby isn’t verbal enough yet to get this speech, but she has gotten the “Teeth are not for biting!” and “Ouch!” speech, followed by her crying and being oh-so-careful latching on.

See, I don’t feel like I “need my body back”, because I have set the terms under which I share it. Maybe that’s what makes the difference. They are my terms. And I am willing to share my body with my little ones, given reasonable expectations.

177

Wow I learned more about potty training in the past hour than I learned in my whole life! There are so many informative links out there, but here are just a few excerpts…

From a May 4, 2004 New York Times article (registration may be required): http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/04/health/psychology/04BROD.html?pagewanted=2&ei=5007&en=cd1c51b3ee84f6ae&ex=1399003200&partner=USERLAND

From http://pottytrainingsolutions.com/information/potty-training-at-birth.htm

From http://www.womenofspirit.asn.au/docs/sb_mind_over_matter.pdf

From http://www.natural-wisdom.com/

From http://www.diaperfreebaby.org/

From http://indiatogether.org/2004/aug/chi-diapers.htm

178

Chotii, thanks for the first-hand account. I honestly found it very enlightening and interesting. You sound like a very caring and patient mom.

You’re right, it’s wrong to shame your child for asking to nurse. But, as with everything, kids do get too old for certain things, like their pacifier, their blankey, diapers, breast feeding…and eventually they need to be told they are too old for those things. Big Boys and Big Girls do not use a pacifier, for example. You are the parent and it is your job to tell your child what to do and what not to do; it is not their job to tell you what they’re going to do.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to tell me more about your experience. :wink:

179

When I read this, I laughed aloud. I seem to spend a LOT of my time telling my kids what to do and what not to do. :smiley:

Anyway, I think we’re in more agreement on this than you realise. It’s only the time frame where we disagree. I think some things are perfectly acceptable to allow to go, to allow the child to decide when he’s ready to give them up. Other things, allowed with limits. Other things, not allowed after a certain age. You and I, we merely disagree on what ages, and what things.

But I’m in no hurry to make my children grow up. I’m not trying to hold them back either - don’t make that assumption - but I’m not in a hurry. None of mine had ‘lovey’ objects past about the age of 3, except for bedtime. The two that took pacifiers spit them out around 9 months of age and never wanted them again. So I’ve never had to fight those battles. The potty training went just fine - at an age I consider appropriate, and it certainly seems to have worked. So we’re not disagreeing, except on when these things should be done. That’s all.

180

I just want to chime in on the issue of potty training.

Both my sister and I were fully potty trained by the age of two.

My mother did not actually potty train either of us.

What she did was keep a potty seat in the bathroom next to the toilet practically from the day we were brought home from the hospital. Also, she didn’t shut us out of the bathroom when she had to use it (unless, of course, there was company). So, early on we had an awareness of what the big white chair in the bathroom was used for, and it was pretty easy to figure out that the little seat next to it was for the little people in the house to use. We basically learned by imitation. Of course, we both still had the occasional accident, but we trained ourselves.