Musiguy - Apology accepted. On the issue of “people like me” as parents: you have absolutely no idea of how I raised children. When I was in a relationship with a single mother, I helped raise her daughter. Although that relationship is over, the good parenting from both of us did the child good.
What we’re discussing here is not an infant or a toddler. We’re discussing a 14-year old who knew damn well he was going to violate other people’s bodies completely without their consent. And all this for his amusement. What other violations are acceptable? Rape if there’s no chance of pregnancy? I seriously doubt anyone with sense would think that.
Regarding the Marine: From the limited information you just provided, it looks like it was mutual horseplay and not a pre-meditated crime as the one in the OP was. Here’s a link to a local case involving someone who got kicked out of the Marines: http://web.montereyca.com/content/monterey/2001/10/07/news/A1.Carson.1007.htm.
This bright young man actually thinks he’s the victim! What do I think the punishment should be? How about, “What does the actual victim of the crime think the punishment should be?”
Lastly, my comment was not “ignorant.” It was an opinion, and the OP clearly shows that. I obviously think the 14-year old is a human; however, I think he is an extremely dangerous one because of his method of amusing himself.
Sam Stone: Pray tell, why should the judicial branch even have juvenile courts then?
Also, I already mentioned in this thread that, at least in California, expulsion from a particular school does not mean expulsion from schooling.
Sam Stone, I agree with almost all of your points:[ul]
[li] the validity of corporal punishment (worked for me)[/li][li] the stupidity of militant Zero Tolerance policies in schools[/li][li]the stupidity of stripping from teachers their ability to control and discipline children[/li][li]the contradiction of disciplining children by excluding them from school, one of the places that should teach them discipline[/li][/ul]
In fact, I agree with every damned thing in your post. Except one:
Erhm, on second thoughts how about we keep him away from other peoples food until we’re sure this is a one off offence? You know, just in case…
Good question. The problem is, I never said that this was “acceptable”. It was not. I don’t think it equates to the crime described in the link you provided, but it was far from ok. I’m not trying to justify what he did. My whole argument is as to what is appropriate punishment. If the kid did verifiable physical harm to one these people, the punishment would have to be more severe.
Would I be correct in assuming that you would find this to be of the same severity as spiking a punchbowl with alcohol? If you think it is worse, I would be surprised. If you think they are the same, then are you honesty saying that anyone that spikes a punchbowl should go to jail? Do you know how many kids would be in jail? I think most people would think of that as a prank, perhaps a dangerous one, but still a prank.
Do you actually really believe that a detention facility would actually be the best first attempt at turning this kid around without trying anything else first? If this kid were molested while being locked away, wouldn’t that be a far worse thing than what he did? Especially, if there were other potentially successful options available. Is it really worth the risk? I have a step brother that took out his mothers car as a 13 year old. He hit a lampost and was arrested. The police put him in Juvie for a year. He has been back 3 times since then and his chances of ever being anything in life are pretty much gone. He wasn’t a bad kid but he has become one. I fail to see how this helped society. One could argue that he was just a bad seed from the get go but he really just never had any supervison or guidance. I think he would have responded well to discipline but was never given the chance. Now we all pay for this because he is learning how to be a better screw-up every day, I’m sure. I think we have a responsibility to our kids and society to try to do the best things we can to be reasonable and make rational decisions in thier upbringing, for better or worse. And I really think a kid that bakes pot brownies or spikes a punchbowl isn’t always a lost cause.
Does calling it a prank excuse it? Sometimes people are seriously hurt, even killed, as the reult of ‘pranks’. His aquiring the controlled substance was not a prank, but a crime in and of itself. When I was a wayward teen, back in a more permissive time, I still knew that buying and possessing pot was a crime.
Musicguy: Actually, I hold the government (as in the guards) responsible for the molestations which occur in prison/juvenile hall. That’s probably a different thread, though.
And to answer your query: Yes, I consider spiking someone’s drink with alcohol to be the equivalent crime. It’s still violating someone else’s body.
Ok, so I guess what is being proposed then is no middle ground. It doesn’t matter that his intention wasn’t physically hurt someone. It doesn’t matter that no one was actually physically hurt. It doesn’t matter that it was perhaps a first offense. His age doesn’t matter. If you do something that could hurt someone, whether it does or doesn’t, you should be incarcerated. No other options, just lock em up.
My point is that it is a serious risk, one that occurs way too frequently. It’s a horrible environment that should be an absolute last resort. And that is regardless of who is responsible for it?!?!
But I do appreciate your consistency concerning whether it was alcohol or pot.
Now, I feel compelled to ask you this: Are you aware that the issue I’m concerned with isn’t the pot or the alcohol, per se, but rather the violation of someone else’s body?
Yes, I do recognize that. I don’t think it is the same as rape though. The ramifications of the ingestion have to account for something, as in nobody involved has claimed to be hurt by this.
I’m going to go out on a limb here but maybe I can make sense. Beef usually contains steroids and other additives, the long term effects of people ingesting these chemicals could be considered detrimental to thier health. Now, meat is not labeled as having these chemicals in it, therefore some might not be aware that they exist. You could then consider that perhaps people are ingesting something into their system that they are unaware of. The company that produces the meat is aware of it though. Could you draw the conclusion then that the meat companies are violating peoples bodies without their knowledge (raping them, so to speak). I would venture to say that many of the chemicals are far worse than pot, as far as long term effects are concerned.
To me, the kid involved wasn’t seeing the whole picture when he did this. That seems pretty obvious. If he really wanted to harm people, why not use rat poison. It’s far easier to get. In other words, I think it would be hard to prove that that there was intent to do physical harm to others. The meat industry DOES know exactly what they are putting in from a scientific standpoint, and choose to do it anyway. It seems that their intent is clear, yet nobody is suggesting felony prosecution for them. Where do we draw the line? What if he had put caffiene in the brownies, or saccharine?
I can’t help but think that there is a prejudice concerning the fact that it was pot and many have been misinformed as to how dangerous this drug actually is. In my younger, stupider days, I can recall ingesting damn near a whole tray of pot brownies. Was I stoned? Absolutely! Was there any physical harm? Nope. Nobody has ever overdosed on this drug. Find another drug like that. Yes, Yes, I know that intent is the issue here. I’m just trying to point out that I don’t think it can all be as black and white as you seem to suggest.
Oye, gevalt. You actually equated doing a drawing of a gun with taking a REAL drug and sneaking it into the bodies of unsuspecting REAL peers??? Jackbooted? That’s a laugh. I don’t beat my kids, I find more enlightened ways to instill the fear of god. If my kid got suspended for giving a friend a tic-tac, I’d be after the School Board immediately. Yes, the Zero Tolerance thing is insane- but you’re trying to draw the ire and fire of others- including myself- who have a REAL problem with the real drugs, being given to real people. You want his PARENTS to discipline him for this?
Um, excuse me but one of two things is true here. Either you are calling me a total liar in the quotes I used from the Santa Cruz P.D. officer, OR you have your own particular style of respecting the laws of the land.
Which is it? You want a parent to take over, because you don’t LIKE the laws of the land, and remove the power of a law enforcement authority?
And you call some of us jackbooted. Whoa man.
Yes in fact you could try to make a case for that, but it’s an apple case in a bowl full of oranges. Do you not see this? The biggest complaints here seem to be ( aside from a lot of anger from me, and others ) that A) It was illegal on several fronts. B)The recipients did not KNOW they were ingesting. C) The danger level on the surface is minimal- as I said, I did pot for a long time, sure didn’t dull my freakin’ edge any. But- allergic shock, exceptional reactions, etc.
While the average 14 year old might not know about the chemicals in beef, his/her parents ought to. They have information, and give informed consent when they buy beef that has most likely been produced using the materials you list above.
There was no consent, therefore ( IMHO ) you have assault, or at the very least- " Providing or Poisoning ".
Ok, this is probably nitpicking and getting away from the subject but…
Maybe the family doesn’t buy beef and hasn’t discussed it. Maybe the kid goes with his friends to McDonalds and buys a Big Mac. There is no informed consent there. He is ingesting chemicals without his knowledge.
We all know it was illegal, that can’t be argued. But the extent of the punishment? That requires a lot of elements to determine, some highly debateable (sp?) if this thread is any indication.
Cartooniverse, if this kid was 18, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. I have no problem with prosecuting adults for the crimes they commit.
But the kid is 14. That’s pretty young. We recognize that at 14 a kid is not responsible enough to drive a car, or own a gun, or vote, or have sex with adults, or buy cigarettes or alcohol. Why is that? Because we recognize that 14-year olds lack JUDGEMENT.
That being the case, why in hell are we trying them for crimes as if they are adults? ESPECIALLY for a first offense, and for a crime in which no one was permanently hurt?
As for these ‘esoteric’ issues about violating the rights of others to not injest things they don’t want to injest, well hey that’s a fairly complex issue for a 14-year old to wrap his head around. For example, adults generally have a pretty strong inhibition against hitting other people, but kids don’t. They hit each other regularly, both in fun and anger. They shouldn’t, but they do. Punching someone in the face is a felony, but kids get in fistfights all the time. Do you want to lock them all up? Aggravated assault, man! Let’s lock them all up.
You just can’t judge the actions of children by the same standards that you judge adults. It’s not right, and it’s not smart.
I don’t have the warm fuzzy feeling about this ‘good kid who played a harmless prank’ that some others do. My feeling is he is punk that, with malice of forethought, fucked with the bodies of several other people. My bad.
But let me say this. If this kid isn’t sentenced to juvy time in the hall, it sends a very, very bad message. It says this kind of thing is no big deal. And I think it is a very big deal. I would be pissed off royal if this kid had drugged me. I would have beat him like a dog for doing it.
I would not want him to walk scott free. And community service, for all intents and purposes, is a walk.
Side A) It was akin to poisoning, with malice of forethought. He deserves no sympathy.
Side B) It was a stupid childish mistake, and he’s 14. 14 year olds make mistakes, so why send him to jail where he’ll really learn how to be dangerous.
How about we just accept this as a difference in outlook, and call it. Nothing new is being added, and no one’s going to change position.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by spooje *
**
I don’t have the warm fuzzy feeling about this ‘good kid who played a harmless prank’ that some others do. [B/]
[QUOTE/]
I don’t have a warm and fuzzy feeling either and I never said it was harmless. But what is important is [B}what is best for society[B/].
And why not, he’s a worthless piece of shit, right? Just wondering, do you have kids that you beat like dogs? There are far more productive ways of disciplining children than calling them names, beating them, or locking them up.
**Gary[B/] is right though, we are just going in circles.
I’m curious. What’s that got to do with this debate?
So, why are you associating this with a discussion on how a particular 14 year old should be dealt with, and whether spiking food should be considered to be an act of assault or a stupid mistake by a minor?