Thanks for the legal advice. Though, my point has always been that he should just not be tried as an adult. I have no problem with him doing community service til he turns 18. I just think we should avoid the type of punitive action that can turn a naughty teenager into a trained criminal.
Erek
Um, the last discussion was regarding “battery,” not “assault.” [sub]Darn reading comprehension skills[/sub]
Yeah, SAM, well I’m as disturbed by the “kids will be kids” mentality brought to bear here to minimize what could have been a dangerous situation, and what surely was a gross affront to the people whose right to govern their own bodies this kid took away.
I find it hard to believe that a 14 year old did not know that giving people marijuana would be mind-altering. In fact, that appears to be contradicted by the article itself, which states that he intended to get them stoned. So the question becomes not whether he should have had the foresight to see that people could have gotten very ill, but whether he should have understood, at the age of 14, that he had no right to do what he did. I don’t know why you are so eager to minimize it as some unthinking prank, as if that makes any difference. In my mind, it does not. This was a serious, and seriously stupid thing to do. It ought to be punished severely. I don’t think we are actually disagreeing about that, so I just wish you’d stop posting “kids will be kids” and “we all did stupid things,” as if either of those have anything to do with the seriousness of this lapse of judgment. I don’t care if “kids will be kids;” they cannot do this sort of thing, and ought to know better. And whatever stupid things we all might have done in the past has nothing to do with whether this is an acceptably dumb thing to have done, which it is not.
No one said it was acceptable behaviour. No one said the kid should not be punished.
What I have a problem with are the people saying that this kid should be tried in adult court, which presumably could get him locked up in jail for several years, or at least given a criminal record to haunt him for the rest of his life.
Other suggestions are that he should be expelled from school and be given FOUR YEARS of community service, and otherwise be made to feel like an outcast from society for a long, long time because of a stupid stunt.
I have a question for you: Are there ANY ‘crimes’ that a 14-year-old should not be punished for in adult court? Why even have the concept of juvenile justice in the first place? Would you lower the age for all crimes to 14? If not, what makes this one so different that it should be an exception?
SAM, we appear to be talking at cross purposes. I have never said the kid should be tried as an adult, though, so far as that goes, I do think that decision should be made based upon the maturity of the kid (after, say, 14, with a presumption below that of immaturity) and not the gravity of the crime charged. What, we’re only willing to treat teenagers like adults if the crime is really serious? I find that idea a difficult one to defend.
Anyhow, what I have objected to is the “kids will be kids, we all do stupid things” mentality, as if this is the equivalent of TP’ing the principal’s house.
There is no contradiction in acknowledging that the kid is in fact a kid and should be punished as one, and acknowledging that the act was hugely stupid, inappropriate, and wrong, and ought to be punished severely. Proportionately to his maturity, yes; but within that context, severely.
New York law makes it clearer, but I’m wondering if there may be decisional law in California that would bring about the same result:
I feel pretty comfortable in assuming that drug-induced disorientation would qualify as a serious physical injury, albeit temporary. A class A misdemeanor could result in any or all of the following: up to one year in jail, three years’ probation and/or $1,000 fine; restitution might also be imposed.
I’m also of the view that although the offense is serious, if the kid has no record trial as an adult would be over-the-top. There are kids who indeed deserve to be tried as adults because, frankly, they’re already too far gone for there to be any reasonable hope of saving them. A kid who bakes pot into brownies, without more, ain’t one of 'em, stupid as he may be. What he did was negligent - perhaps even reckless, which would raise the offense to second degree. It did not, however, result in lasting injury.
Judge Oxy, having no experience in criminal law whatsoever (which means he’s eminently qualified to serve as a judge of the New York City Court, Criminal Part), would accept a plea bargain resulting in a term of probation, community service, drug education and transfer to an appropriate educational facility. Case closed.
Hey, I didn’t SUGGEST four years community service, I just said better that than trying him as an adult.
I truly think the kid didn’t think through the ramifications of his actions. This is from the teachings of a society that is more based on punishment than it is on re-education. I’m sure this kid got in trouble in a way that had NOTHING to do with what he actually did. He was given a 15 minute time out when he did something bad. Not a time out that was open ended until he was willing to come and talk about what he did wrong. I mean so many factors come into play here, but we are so into punishment in our society, that we are blind to the fact that punishment is almost always counter-productive. IE putting people in prison only to give them a criminal college education for selling pot. Instead of really trying to teach them something that they can use to NOT want to sell pot. Not to mention the idea that you were punished for something usually makes employers scatter.
I think the kid did something stupid, he didn’t think through his actions completely, past “I could get into trouble for this.”, and “People will be so funny when they are stoned.” and “I’m gonna be a legend.” I think he just didn’t give it that much thought. I bet he knew that it was wrong but I doubt he gave a ton of thought to how changing someones mental state was a violation of their rights to be in the state that they would like to be in at any given time.
I’m sorry, I just don’t think he needs to be severely punished. Punished more than he would for TPing hte principal’s house? Yes. Punished more than he would be for spraypainting an anarchy sign on the school? Yes. Punished to a degree that will alter his life forever? No.
I do think that expulsion will alter his life forever. Most kids that got expelled from other schools that came to my school were pretty much hellions, and forcing them to change schools really isn’t the answer. Now forcing them to take a drug awareness class every single day after school? Now that makes sense.
Erek
I stand by what I said. I noted that there could be psychotic effects unrelated to the chemical effects of LSD. Also, I argued that LSD might exacerbate, and certainly not help, mental illness. In addition to all this I mentioned that chronic use (every day for over a year) could cause “brain seizures,” although this is anecdotal evidence gleaned from a friend who worked in a drug treatment facility.
I think you have made an extraordinary claim–to wit, that LSD can cause a permanent trip in one use–now show me the evidence. Once again I will offer evidence that supports my position. If you question the source I cite, do a search yourself, he is quoting the “accepted” sources for the most part. OK, that makes about, ah, six cites for my side–I would check but the internet is really s–l--o–w right now. Or is that just temporal d[sub]i[/sub]s[sub]t[/sub]ortion? Did you see that?
I did the searches you recommended, dutifully and comprehensively. I found NO (NO) evidence of a scientific or anecdotal nature to support the “permatrip.” Forgive me if I question statements like “My cousin (friend of a friend, whatever) did acid and is still messed up.” A few problems: alternate causality, poly drug abuse, preexisting conditions, I could go on. So I stand by my claim of :bullshit:. If what you said is true the anti-druggies would trot these people out on TV every day. I cannot wait for the evidence you must have to have made your claims of “too many times,” and “you are full of shit.” :all ears:
It is still not nice to foist pot brownies on unsuspecting people. [/hijack insurance]
What the hey, this seems like a good time to point out:
[ul][li]Prison doesn’t automatically “ruin a life.” Tim Allen could’ve let his stint ruin his life but he didn’t.[/li]Expulsion from a school in California does not mean no further education. It does mean no further educatin at that school. Children who have been suspended or expelled from schools in this state get alternative schooling.[/ul]
beagle, I have no cites for you, again I post from work and I am not gonna do acid research here. But I don’t have any scientific evidence, and I concede that. It’s not too important if I convince you.
Erek
It’s assault. Call the municipality where this happened. Ask the Chief of Police if it’s assault or a prank.
**
I doubt it,it seems that many posters here share your fond memories of endangering the health and safety of others. Some of us didn’t behave that way. You wanna paint us all as law-abiding, safety-conscious 14 year olds? I can live with that appelation.
**
While I respect your honesty in admitting this, it kind of validates my impression of you. You did it, you got away with it, you’re okay, so fuck those of us who feel that this is NOT okay. Yes, I know, Ex-Lax[sym]Ô[/sym]is not a controlled substance, whereas pot is. But the pride you voice here- YOUR WORDS, okay???- is pretty plain.
**
It’s a fundamental difference. You want to call anyone who regards the law an overreacting jerk. I want to obey the law. You don’t like the law? Good- join Congress, or Parliament, and re-write 'em to suit your needs and tastes. Otherwise? Try respecting them. Lots of us do, you know. **
Once again you show us that you find it just standard teenage behavior. No malice involved, to use your EXACT words. Really? No malice? Fine, you got your doidies in a twist over my rape scenario? What if one of your kids was to ingest a spiked brownie, without your knowledge, and became violently ill, or had an anaphylactic reaction- because they’d never had such a substance, and had no way of knowing they were ingesting it? **
This is a great piece of wisdom??? Ahhhh, so the boy was stupid and that’s okay, and yet he freely admits he knew exactly WHAT he was doing, and WHAT the substance was he was doping the kids with, and yet he is only stupid and not malicious. **
What, you want more quotes? You made it clear here that he’s stupid but not malicious. That it’s a prank, no assault. That you spiked food and fed it to unaware peers, and seemingly brag about it. Where do you say the kid shouldn’t be punished hard? See that quote of YOUR FUCKING WORDS up here? The one that asks about community service. There ya go, sir. YOUR words. Unless you are going to accuse me of cutting, EDITING and pasting, your words. You want community service for someone who assaulted others. Doesn’t sound like you advocate hard punishment to me. If community service is hard labor, then what is going easy on a 14 year old, in your book? C’mon- we all want to know your version of going easy, since YOUR WORDS UP THERE state, and I am glad to quote you directly once again–**
.
You asked for proof. I used your words, without altering a single one. Oh, you have made your feelings on the entire subject extremely clear to everyone who is reading this thread.
Of course, you may attempt to show how I edited, or in some way altered your words. Good luck. 
I will admit that it was smarmy to ask someone else, even someone I’m arguing with, to do legwork that I could do.
I just got off the phone with the Santa Cruz, California P.D. Tomorrow I will call the Investigations Division, and find out FROM THE MUNICIPALITY that is prosecuting the kid, if it is indeed assault. I will find out what the child is charged with ( If they will tell me ).
If they won’t tell me specifically, then at least they will tell me if, according to California Criminal Code, that is considered assault or not. I’ll post as complete a reply as I can transcribe. If I’m totally off-base, I’ll own up to it. I’d bet for endangering the welfare of a minor at the VERY least. However, I’ll find out and post the truth, from the S.C.P.D.
They’re 3 hours behind me, I will have to call after 11am, Chicago Posting Time.
Cartooniverse
For someone with the nick of cartooniverse you have a pretty major stick up your ass. Did you get it from Acme?
Erek
Well, if it was good enough for Tim Allen, I’m sure it will work that way for everyone.
Seriously, if you think that a child has any chance of rehabilitation by being jailed, you are sorely mistaken. It has to be a last resort because it may harm the kid far more than how they “harmed” others. Raising good kids takes a little more patience and ingenuity than quick fixes like locking them up. I refuse to call a kid “a worthless peice of shit” like the OP did just because they made a royal mistake.
And, it must be nice to be so perfect that you can cast those proverbial stones.
I hope it’s not too late for me to check in…
The kid should not be prosecuted as an adult. But he must be prosecuted. A year, maybe two, in juvy hall sounds appropriate. He must be made aware of the seriousness of what he did. What if some of those who ate the brownies had deep religious convictions against ingesting drugs? As has already been pointed out, there could have been severe allergic reactions. What, pray tell, if one of his victims was a recovering addict?(yes, they do come that young. I have met many of them) I think that high could be very detrimental to them. Bottom line, this kid is very lucky no one was seriously injured.
The kid must be punished, and the appropriate signal sent. I.E., that this will not be tolerated. AT ALL. I do think his being sentenced as a juvenile will send that message.
geez. the kid was an idiot. you wanna start going the prosecution angle with all the stupid kids in the country, then you’re gonna have to build a hell of a lot more detention centers for juvenilles.
sure punish him, he was a fuck knuckle. make him do community service, or something. dont fuck his life over forever by sending him to prison.
theoretical:
i break my leg at a school camp, and we’re in the middle of nowhere. someone says “here have a cigarette while we take you back to camp for proper medical attention” and it turns out to be a joint. i get back to camp, and am not screaming, or fainted from the trip over rough terrain.
id say that was a pretty good idea.
its not all balck and white people.
there are (at last count) an infinite number of shades of gray.
Folks,
How about actually READING what I posted? I did say I maintain that the culprit should be prosecuted as an adult; however, scroll back a few posts and you should be able to notice where I clearly posted that the incarceration can very well be in Juvenile Hall.
With apologies in advance for how long this will be. Cartooniverse, the comments I asked you to back up were
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Cartooniverse ***
[ul][li]Hey, Gary, you seem pretty darned outraged that we are even a bit angry about this.[/li][li]But then, from what we’ve read of your early posts in this thread, distortion is your specialty.[/ul]**[/li][/quote]
When pushed for evidence, you present the following
So, you lying tosser - tell me please which of these statements justify your claim that I’m outraged, or that I’m distorting events? You will, I know, continue to weasel around, avoid the question and generally be a fuck, but I live in hope. If it’s any help, here’s an example of the use of quotes in support of accusations.
Cartooniverse, in your first post in this thread you launched an ad hominem attack on me (“You contemptible speck of shit”). Your postings so far have seen a series of straw men arguments (“You want to call anyone who regards the law an overreacting jerk”), distortion ("so fuck those of us who feel that this is NOT okay") and outright lies (“basics of respect, right to control one’s own body and self-destiny aren’t a part of your post-apocalyptic world ","you seem pretty darned outraged that we are even a bit angry about this”). In light of these tactics I must then repeat my original statement - you, fucko, are a cunt.
Yes, but you’re the cunt that feels it’s all a part of being a 14-year-old boy, and I’m the cunt that thinks it’s assault.
I’m oh so very curious. What happens if the Santa Cruz P.D. people I speak to inform me that it’s assault? Or, that in fact it is any crime aside from being " just a prank" ( YOUR words).
I’ll stick to the facts, jack. I quoted you up one side and down another last evening to support what I said, and you just can’t dig it. Well, that’s okay, this is the B.B.Q. Pit, not Miss Manners. I was pretty vile to you as well. However much you may-or may not- hold American Law Enforcement in distain, I truly can’t wait to see what you have to say when I do indeed post The Straight Dope.
Cartooniverse
Hello. I mean HELLO Anyone in there? Wakey - fucking wakey! What the hell are you confused by? I do not, repeat I DO NOT HOLD AMERICAN LAW ENFORCEMENT IN DISDAIN. I will ask you once more, just to demonstrate my masochistic streak, to give a quote which entitles you to make such a claim (Ha crapping ha, some chance!) How many times must you make up complete lies about my position. If I appeal for leniency in the judgement of a 14 year old how the fuck do you interpret that as me damning your countries legal system? Fuck me sideways, how many times will you misrepresent my argument. Come on - show me just one quote in which I have said a single bad thing about the justice system as it applies in this case?
For fucks sake, did someone splice weasel DNA into a human embryo in some weird fucking experiment? Again I shall ask - how do any of the quotes you give support in any way your accusation that I was outraged at peoples position, or distorting events. Come on, just fucking do it. Give one simple when you said “XXXXXXX” it was outrage/distortion/whatever. Go on - either do it, or fuck off.