Oh for fucks sake, gobear, you don’t even seem to know what you wrote. For that, you’re a moron. Let’s go over it again, shall we?
People is plural, and even if your grammar is so bad that “people” meant the singular Jesus, I am not aware of any churches that preach Jesus died to save us from porn. Your post was an unecesasarily inflamatory reaction to Revtim’s small beef with his mother and belittled an entire religion by describing the reasons behind the passion so tritely. You then cite Acts, yet still seemed confused that others have taken offense. That’s really, really stupid, as you’re hanging yourself with your own rope. Christians do not believe that the “sins of all humanity” amount to “skipping church and watching porn”. To describe it that way is agressive and likely indicative of an underlying hatred of Christianity.
But again, “people” is plural and you insinuated that the Christian God believes people must die to atone for porn. It was an attempt to discredit your opposition by ridiculously exagerating their position, a tactic that can be found in Chapter one of Coulter’s debating handbook. That you sugested Revtim use this tactic on a grieving widow is beyond reprehensible. I don’t have the proper expletive to describe that.
Now to ineffability. I’m assuming you at least know what the word means. It’s a common mistake in atheist arguments, especially the ones that attempt to find a logical inconsistency in the nature or actions of God. Human logic can’t describe the mind of God. That’s ineffability in a nutshell. If God is by definition incapable of being described or understood, what was the fucking point in asking about his “ideas”?
Mehitabel, her grief over Jesus’ pain has nothing to do with her being widowed, she’s always “overreacted” to it (IMHO, of course).
My Dad made no secret of being an atheist to her apparently, but while he was on the way to the hospital while having his fatal heart attack she prayed with him. She’s not sure if was able to respond enough to accept Christ as she believes one must do to not burn in Hell. I’m sure he would have responded, to make her happy. But he was busy painfully dying.
Funny thing, I never knew he was an atheist, like I am. That’s too bad, because it might have been something that could have made us closer. I didn’t know until after he was gone. I had in recent years wanted to ask him his beliefs, but I waited too long.
Reading this, I see it makes my mom look kinda bad in some ways. She’s not pressing me on this issue or anything, but it makes her unhappy, which of course makes me concerned.
But maybe she’s over it, now that I think about it. She hasn’t brought it up in a while. Hopefully she’s feeling some peace.
Like I said before, I just wanted to vent about what I see as an overreaction to pain suffered long, long, long ago, and that even within the context of her belief He should be “over it” by now.
But Christians do say that all sins are equal, right? There’s no degree of sinning. A sin is a sin is a sin.Christians are told that Jesus died for each person’s individual sins. Therefore, Christ died so I could watch porn and have anal sex on Friday night. Which is a sort of a silly thing to die for, if you ask me.
Aha, Revtim, I understand a lot better. It would be a serious thing for her then, and while I don’t agree or approve of what she says, I understand it a lot better.
…and of course there’s degrees of sin, sheesh. In Catholicism we call them mortal and venial sins. And intent is all. My Mom totally blanked on it being Lent and had a roast beef sandwich last Friday. Yes, she wasn’t supposed to do that, but it’s no weight on her soul unless she knew full well it was Friday and deliberately made the sandwich when she had other options available. And even then it’s not a serious thing at all.
It’s great that the totality of your experience determines the rest of the natural world, isn’t it?
Oh. Wait. Oopsy. It doesn’t.
While there are probably few churches that specifically maintain that Jesus died to save us from porn (Og bless), pornography is considered one of any number of sinful things, and the main reason Jesus died, according to same churches, is to allow humans the chance to go to Heaven despite their sinful activities (including watching, producing, being in, etc. porn). I know I’m giving something of a Klutz Guide to Salvation, but the key thing is that Jesus died to atone for the sins of all, and that includes willfully and deliberately skipping church and partaking in pornography - from whichever angle (you’re all welcome for the mental image that gives). According to same churches, Jesus also died to save people from the Jesus-less ramifications of lying, cheating, coveting and properly worshipping Johnny Depp (though you probably wouldn’t get that last one verbatim).
Understanding the logic of “I must kill my son to save the world” is probably not one you’re going to grok. Even from an apologist perspective it’s damn difficult unless you adopt something of a “think of the children!” attitude, and even then it takes some strong license. I’m not surprised people don’t understand it. I don’t anymore.
The key for my Mom is not sin, but “accepting Christ”. You could live a perfect life bereft of sin, but if you haven’t accepted Christ, you go to Hell to burn for eternity. And no, pointing out how incredibly cruel that would make an apparently merciful God makes no difference.
Try not to think too badly of her, she’s a victim of the belief system she grew up in.
Um, yeah, right. I find it amusing that the village idiot thinks others are stupid and he’s the intelligent one.
No, “people” means people. The point of Jesus’s atonement, O Wise One, is that He was taking the punishment that was meant for sinful humanity. That means you and me, you know, people. The whole purpose of the Incarnation was for Jessu to offer Himself as an unblemished sacrifice for the sins of all people.
Note that I’m quoting Scripture to back up my points and Monkey With a Gun is merely spouting uninformed bullshit.
Moreoever, if we are to believe that Jesus died for our sins, then we must agree that viewing porn, which is generally considered to be at least mildly sinful, must be one of the sins that He died for.
Hey, notice the forum’s name, pal.
Remind me to explain “synecdoche” to you someday. But, no the sins of humanity do not amount to skipping church and watching porn.
See above.
Remind me to explain satire to you, as well.
And if you think that my post was meant to be taken literally, you’re more of a fool than I thought.
Employing the argument from ignorance ain’t a-gonna save ya. If it can’t be understood, thenn it’s meaningless nonsense that you cannot defend.
I don’t have any solutions to offer and I don’t want to get caught in the middle of a theological debate, but I absolutely feel you on your OP. My mother is very muchly saved again and it’s not enough for her to find Jesus, she has to keep sharing him with me and crying over my soul and making me feel generally like a horrible person simply for not sharing her views on god. I’ve never said he doesnt exist… but I have alot of questions that “Well, you just gotta believe” won’t answer. People without radically religious loved ones don’t really understand that it’s not as easy as standing up and screaming about how dead ones god truly is… they honestly believe that this is your SOUL at stake. A friend once offered me this counsel… “Your mother loves you so much that she’s willing to risk her own relationship with you for the mere possibility of saving your soul. Don’t for a moment think that is in any way easy for her.” And it’s true. She cries and witnesses and pushes music and books and sermons on me because she loves me and she’s worried about me. She pressures me into giving up agnosticity(sp?) in the same way that a parent might pressure their child into giving up drugs or self-mutilation.
Ret:
Fancy that. I had no idea. No degrees in sin.
I have trouble with that.
So, do you guys have a purgatory?
1 : an intermediate state after death for expiatory purification; specifically : a place or state of punishment wherein according to Roman Catholic doctrine the souls of those who die in God’s grace may make satisfaction for past sins and so become fit for heaven
I had a fundy Mom who passed away last summer. I finally learned just to smile and nod and not get into religious discussions with her as much as possible. Sometimes a bit hard when I got the “your daughter is going to hell because she’s not baptized” but I figured it just wasn’t worth it. Neither one of us was going to convince the other.
Still miss her, though. I just wish the PTL club hadn’t gotten most of her savings.
You’re right, I apologize. It has nothing to do with you being gay. It has everything to do with you being an insensitive, arrogant, angry little prick.
I suppose you have a Ph.D. in Theology, because you clearly have all the answers. All those silly scholars spending years and years (fools like Martin Luther, St. Augustine, Thomas Aquinas, David Hume, Descartes, Hobbes, Locke, Mill, Huxley, etc. etc.) wasting their lives when the genius Gobear has it all figured out.
For that matter, not all Catholic churches espouse Jerome’s belief. Mine didn’t, and while the parochial high school I attended did note a difference in degree between venial and mortal sin, they firmly planted in our minds that any sin was bad.
Would someone care to clue me in what hand stabbing has to do with atheism cause I’m lost.
Re the OP: I think that we pretty much all want the same thing here, no matter what religion (or not) we have chosen. We want respect, be it for our religious choices or our sexual orientation. OPer’s mom is the religious equivalent of a vegan who won’t stop harping at you for choosing to meat. Enough already. I’ll respect your belief to abstain from eating meat if you’ll respect everyone else’s right to indulge in a most delicious cheeseburger.
What I find troubling is the tone of the OP. I am a Christian with (I hope) a fairly liberal sense of humor about my religion. However the trend du jour to gleefully attack people of faith (aka “fundies”) is beginning to get very old. I worship Jesus. Seriously. If you find that notion ridiculous or laughable, I’m okay with that. But it’s a little hypocritical to whine about how your mom doesn’t respect your right to not have Jesus shoved down your throat when you come onto a public board, where you know Christians frequent, and belittle my God.
If God is by definition incapable of being described or understood, what is the fucking point trying to predict what God wants and interpret and adhere to behavioral precepts supposedly handed down from an incomprehensible entity?
When I was kid, in “children’s church” they used to show us two pictures of hearts. One had a tiny speck on it, which represented a tiny sin the person had committed and hadn’t asked forgiveness for. The lesson was, if you die with even a tiny sin on your heart that hadn’t been cleansed away, say hello to Hitler for me; you’ve got the spot in the lake of fire next to him reserved.
There’s a story about Madeleine Murray O’Hair stabbing someone’s hand who said “God Bless You” to her when she sneezed.
To be clear, she doesn’t really harp on me for anything, mainly because she thinks I still believe mostly as she does. Yes, I lie to her, so she doesn’t worry about soul as she does my Dad’s.
I’m sorry if you find it disrespectful, but I truly feel that my Mom makes a too big deal about suffering one guy made 2,000 years ago. I truly feel that even if he was alive in some sense, He’d be over it by now. I meant no disrespect; it’s simply that a lot of time has passed.
