Ah duffer, the old “Look it up yourself” ploy? Best pulled out when it doesn’t exist. I’ve tried to look it up you #######. They do not exist. Never did. No one said it. No one said anything like it. On another challenge of the same the best someone came up with were a few quotes from an extremist party in Israel that didn’t want to let it play in Israel. No one wanted it banned. No one said it would cause any kind of violent reaction. You read that on the Stormfront site maybe? So sleep it off. Then #### off ya liar.
Sorry Lib but saying that
aint hyperbole. It is a lie. It is saying someone did something they did not do. (I guess Bush was just using hyperbole about WMD? Clinton was just using hyperbole about not having sex with Monica? The child molesting priests are just using hyperbole when they say they never touched the kids they molested?) Pulled out by people who want to make the claim that “those whining Jews are always screaming antisemitism”. I call lies “bullshit” (at least in the Pit.) BTW, you see from duffer’s response that he did not mean it as an exaggeration and it wouldn’t make sense as one (“Critics said that ‘The Passion’ might encourage some latent antisemitism … well where is it, huh?”) He states it as true “pooled” from many sources … meaning he heard that’s what they were saying from others of “similar bent”. If he meant it as “hyperbole” he had the chance to retract and state what he meant.
I use the same bullshit stick on myself. Tell me where you claim I lied. And no I am not employing the rhetorical tool of hyperbole. I claim what I said is true. Find a lie.
Sorry to hear about your grandfather’s brother… and I mean that. It happened a long time ago but I feel sure that those involved are still affected by it.
My Grandfather lost three out of his six brothers in WW1… He was posted to the North-West Passage or thereabouts at the time… it’s strange watching news reports about the Pakistani-Afghanistani border and thinking of him being there 90 years ago…
I can’t cite your grandfather’s brother back to life, nor mine, but your assertion that Hitler hated Catholics as much has he hated Jews just doesn’t hold water.
An aunt of mine (not a blood relation) was one of two survivors (along with her sister) in her family after the war (she was Polish-Jewish). Her sister couldn’t handle it and (I was too young to know at the time and it’s not something that’s been spoken about much, but from what I can gather…) in 1966 commited suicide by standing in front of a train.
There was never any attempt by the Nazis to exterminate Catholics.
Read the links I provided…
Let me know if you want more…
Thanks for the sympathy, but it’s not really about him dying. I was born in 1973 so I obviously never met him.
My point was that Hitler hated Catholics, too. If I equated the hatred to jews, well, that was wrong. It wasn’t even close.
Point was, he was killed ONLY because of his beliefs. Hitler took the ole’ Stalin route of “Kill religion so the people become sheep and follow the state” line.
To make this short (and please ask more if I can’t make it concise) he was killed BECAUSE he was Catholic. No other reason. I’d love to claim he was someone important, or he was making big waves in the Reich, but I can’t.
Maybe it was someone with a personal grudge, but most likely it was because he just wouldn’t denounce the Pope for Hitler.
Either way, it was over 60 years ago, so it really doesn’t matter now.
Well, DSeid, I can’t even get come people to acknowledge that ridiculing black women’s big butts is racist. At least not when it’s someone they like. So that leads me to suspect that a statement is considered more than hyperbole — or note — based largely on who said it.
About 40% of Germany was Catholic, and the Nazis never engaged in organized persecution and murder of Catholics. I’m sorry to say this, Duffer, and I’m sorry to hear about your grandfather’s brother, but I think there’s probably more to the story.
Hitler killed Catholics on an individual basis when they preached against him or refused to comply with his regime. Your granduncle was almost certainly killed because he did something to piss off Hitler, possibly based on his religious views, which is certainly admirable, but I seriously doubt it was simply because he was Catholic. Catholics constituted almost half of all Germans and the majority of Bavarians and Austrians.
Anne Frank, on the other hand, was killed 100% because she was Jewish. The nun Teresa Benedicta (born Edith Stein) was killed 100% because she was Jewish, even though she became a devout convert to Catholicism long before Hitler came to power. There is a measurable distance: Catholics were NOT on par with Jews , Romani, or even Poles, homosexuals and Jehovah’s Witnesses on Hitler’s agenda.
[QUOTE=DSeid]
If I can make it out through the incoherence, the op is claiming that many claimed that significant forces were out trying to ban this movie out of fear that it would have a direct and immediate violent antisemitic effect.
This is bullshit. Absolute bullshit. An out and out lie.
QUOTE]
Ever hear of google? plug in ole Abe Foxman’s name and you find mutiple speeches where he claims anti-Semitism will run rampant. Oh, wait, anti-Semitism claims are bullshit?!? Cool, now I can raise Nazi flags my grandfather brought back from Germany. Am I allowed to use the swords he brought back?
While Libertarian may not agree with the OP, this is an excellent point I didn’t make. If Lib agreed, great, but won’t tie this OP to to his views. But great save to me. (thanks Lib)
Not sure how to get this straightened out, but here goes a try.
I conceded the point that Catholics were not on par with Jews as far as the Holocaust. Hitler went all out on Jews. We all know that. My contention is that we don’t forget there were others killed and targeted. Catholics were killed because they didn’t fall into the philosophy of the 3rd Reich. (The outspoken ones). For the most part, Catholics were allowed to live if they lied and said they followed the Fuhrer. (umlauts added) Jews died just for being Jews.
On my way to the nightlclub, I forgot to stop and get a degree from the local liberal arts college, so I may not have the eloquence some on these boards have, but I’d like to have a good discourse on this.
My OP was harsh to get some discussion on this, but remember it’s very personal to me, therefore the choice on the forum.
Why is being killed for being Jewish any more tragic than being killed for being Catholic?
Still an overstatement. Lots of Catholics were quite willing to follow Hitler. The point that some groups had members murdered for speaking out and that other groups were murdered for being born is valid. Trying to extend that point to shield members who did not speak out by the actions of those who did is not a particularly successful position, although I suspect that the point will not be resolved in this forum.
At any event, regardless whether you were posting lies or hyperbole, I really did not understand most of your rant. Foxman has a legitimate (if sometimes overblown) concern regarding the resuscitation of anti-Jewish feelings in this country. When he heard of the project, he sought to meet with Gibson on several occasions and was rebuffed. (Gibson did meet with other members of Christian and Jewish scholarly groups later and there are reports that his final edit was tailored in response to their criticisms.)
Foxman never called for the movie to be banned and, in retrospect, was apparently mistaken in his belief that it would have an immediate negative effect on attitudes toward Jews in this country. Most of the people whom I know who have viewed it have seen it from the perspective of “look what Jesus sufffered for all humanity.” Of course, none of the people I know who have seen it were predisposed to anti-Jewish beliefs. I hope that Foxman continues to be mistaken, although we have not seen the long-term results of the movie. Several people who have seen the movie who have studied the period and the Scriptures have pointed out that both the priests and the Jewish people are not accurately portrayed based on any historical information. (Claims that it just portrays the Gospels are invalid, given the extra stuff that Gibson threw in, taken from apocryphal texts, medieval legends, and his own imagination.)
So you have a person who has suffered persecution who hears about a project to recreate–one more time–one of the phenomena that has helped perpetuate such persecution in the past. (You are, I presume, aware of the relationship between various passion plays and anti-Jewish rhetoric? And that the most famous of those plays, the one at Oberammergau, after reducing the anti-Jewish rhetoric in the 1970s, restored it at a time when there was a resurgence of anti-Jewish feeling in Europe?) And when the author of the work in question, having refused to discuss the topic, then uses those requests for discussion to cry “censorship” before any public condemnation has appeared, you decide to pit the person who was concerned, simply because your views differ? And you perpetuate the lie of censorship in your rant?
(And, yes, I realize that Foxman’s bull-in-a-china-shop demeanor makes this easy. However, your overreaction seemed to exceed even that of Foxman and the point of your rant was really lost to me in the muddle of your text.)
It would be bad if the movie portrayed Jews as a whole in a negative way.
Suppose it had been the case that not only was Caiaphas an evil politician, but all the Marys were lazy sluts, all the disciples were empty-headed lemmings, Simon cursed Jesus as he carried His cross, his daughter brought water to throw in Jesus’ face, no one at the night trial protested the proceedings, and Jesus Himself said on the cross, “Father, punish all the Jews, for they have murdered me.” Oh, and I guess Jesus, as a Jew, says as His last words, “I was just kidding, you morons.”
In most any group of people that size, there are shitheads and saints. I think that assigning evil to the power-brokers and goodness to the meek and loving was the right way to go. But that’s just me.
Duffer, I’ve googled away before. They are not there. They do not exist. He said nothing of the sort and nor did any “many others”. Early in the thread is an example of what Foxman was really saying and Tom recaps it nicely.
