On preview, thank you, Sarahfeena, for actually responding to my points. I’ll reply shortly.
The point you haven’t made is that the music causes you are anyone else measurable harm.
You OR anyone else. :smack:
I understand that, and think it should be implied, not stated; that was my objection. You don’t need to tell people they have a right to their opinion, it’s patronizing. Of course I do, as do you.
I don’t see why. To begin with, most stores play secular Christmas music. Now that would be a lot of letters, but even so – you only need to write one letter and send it however many times. It might add up to a lot of stamps, if you did an awful lot of shopping, but it’s still only a couple…three…maybe four…okay, it’s six months of the year at most. 
Seriously, though, even if it were a lot of letters, so what? That’s no skin off anybody else’s back, but everyone reacted like this was not just crazy but somehow dangerous, with whathisface even saying it was dragging the country down.
It doesn’t, of itself. But again: would you be comfortable if they were broadcasting prayers from any religion in your local grocery store? Religious hymns are prayers set to music. What if they had born-again Christians stationed in every aisle with pamphlets? Is there a line at which you’d say ‘Okay, that’s enough, I’m uncomfortable’? To begin to empathize, just imagine that moment, and that’s how a Jewish person like MsRobyn may feel when confronted with constant loud Christian prayers while shopping.
Now, I’m not saying those things are likely to happen any time soon. But the musical prayers at Christmastime are symptomatic of the Jesus mania eating this country alive. Because of Jesus mania, I cannot legally marry my partner or feel safe from attack. Because of Jesus mania, we’re persuing a foreign relations policy that looks suspiciously pro-Armaggedon. Because of Jesus mania, the morning-after pill and stem cell research are kept from doing tremendous amounts of good for many people. I simply do not understand how you and so many other posters can so casually declare that there’s no connection between the broadcast of Worship Music and the Jesus monster chomping away on this country.
This was mentioned earlier, too: if one could hear Worship Music from other religions, or pro-athiest music, whatever that sounds like, then the Christian stuff wouldn’t bother anybody. It’s not that it’s played, but that it’s played to the exclusion of everything else, and indeed that anything else would likely produce a public outcry.
As for the part about my quote, I also agree that letting too many small things go will bring thugs to the door eventually*, but that isn’t what I meant there, no. It was just an example, perhaps ill-chosen.
*I don’t even think you have to pick this particular small thing to fight, but rather that everyone should choose a few little things to stand up for along with the big things.
I was just having a bit of fun. My apologies, I meant no harm.
I have addressed that. Obviously, public places would not be full of Christian prayers set to music unless there was a pretty serious domination of Christianity in this country. That domination causes me and mine some pretty goddamn measurable harm, all right. The music isn’t the cause, but one small effect.
Khadaji, honestly, I thought it was hilarious and well-done. I just don’t want all the credit for MsRobyn and her friends’ actions, and I think the assumption that it must be some personal hangup of mine has dragged things down. But you weren’t part of that.
Repeating an assertion isn’t the same as providing evidence.
Walter, what is your specific objection? I’m not “repeating an assertion”, I’m explaining an assertion, and I’ve done so in several ways over the last couple of pages. Are you saying that if Christianity didn’t dominate this country, the stores would still play nothing but Jesus-oriented worship music? Are you saying that it doesn’t hurt us queers that we can’t get married, or the health of countless people that they don’t have access to the best possible research? Or are you saying that an event which of itself has no immediate ill effect can never possibly play part in a larger ill effect when taken in context?
Tell me what your objection is, if it’s not amongst the above, and I’ll do my best to address it.
I’m saying that Christmas music has no measurable harm on those who don’t care for it. You haven’t shown than it does.
Where?
The very first post in this thread that complained about something other than the timing of the music was a complaint that religious music was not being played and I have not seen any evidence in this thread or in stores over the last few decades that would contradict that point.
Now, I have no idea why this thread has to have dredged up all the personal vitriol that so many posters have decided to hurl at each other. It does not bother me that some posters want to not hear certain music (and vote with their wallets) or that other posters enjoy the stuff being played. I have a hard time getting mad at someone who comes into a rant thread and voices a bit of rant.
However, the idea that anything coming out of the speakers of 95% of the retail establishments over the next five weeks is remotely connected to worship is silly. (I am sure that some store somewhere inadvertantly plays a religious themed piece every once in a while (which I’ll give up as 5%), but even then it is much more likely to be banality such as “The Little Drummer Boy” than something classically based such as “What Child Is This?” or it will be the pagan-based “The Holly and the Ivy” played as an instrumental because no one remembers the words, anyway.)
Tom, the discussion has changed to be specifically about the cases in which stores DO play explicitly religious music.
To summarize, Tom: MsRobyn said that when she encounters a place that plays explicitly religious Christmas music, she stops shopping there and lets management know. That’s at the center of the last few pages of discussion.
And what a gooey center it is!
Actually, I would say that the discussion went the opposaite direction. MsRobyn (before she was subjected to a hail of brickbats and wisely retired before the torches and pitchforks were brought out) explicitly said that there were a few small retailers who played religious music, not that religious music has been dominating her retail experience. Since then the definition of exactly where such religious music might appear has been drowned in the sea of invective. By the time you invoked the word “worship” again, I suspect that the point that it was only a few small shopkeepers under discussion was pretty thoroughly lost.
The only reason I said anything about rights is because you said…
…I was trying to clarify that I DON’T have an objection to your or anyone else exercising the right to boycott, write letters, or do whatever else you want to try to eradicate Christmas music, if you want to. NO objection. You said I had one, and I don’t. I just wanted to make that clear. I’m sorry if you find that patronizing, but when someone states that I have an opinion that I don’t have, I feel the need to correct them.
I don’t know, I hear that damn Whitney Houston version of “Do You Hear What I Hear,” which is a religious song, about 80 million times during the holidays, in all kinds of stores. I couldn’t even keep track of all the places I hear it and remember to send them a letter.
I don’t want to speak for Walter, but I think his point is that the world would be a better place if we ALL tried to appreciate each other’s cultures and not get upset when the predominant culture doesn’t match our own. It happens to many of us in small ways, all the time. I can’t say I disagree with this.
Look, if I lived in a predominantly Jewish area, and they played holiday music (religious or not) in the local grocery store, and I knew I was probably the only gentile in the store, I would seriously just be happy that the Jewish folks were enjoying their holiday. I work in a town that is mostly Jewish…I encounter this stuff all the time. The local Borders has a table permanently set up with Jewish-themed books. They change it around to reflect the time of year, holidays, etc. Is this supposed to somehow bother me because they don’t do the same for Christian holidays? Why would they? It’s not worth the effort in terms of sales.
The music doesn’t bother me. Passing out pamphlets might be a pain, because I would have to deal with the people and then find a place to throw out the pamphlet. I live in an urban area…people are always trying to hand me stuff on the street. 99.9% of the time, I couldn’t care less what it is, I just pitch it out. The message doesn’t bother me, the BOTHER bothers me.
If I thought that hearing Christmas music in a store was going to have an effect on converting people or making them MORE religious, I might agree with you, but I just don’t see it. Personally, I think the insane marketing of Christmas actually detracts from the religion far more than it adds to it.
For better or worse, Christmas is the holdiay that gets people spending. The music puts people (even non-Christians) in a festive, present-buying mood, so there’s just no way that the merchants are going to change their tune (no pun intended! 
)
I wouldn’t necessarily disagree with this.
Tom, I never personally lost sight of that. I’ve always known we were talking about a small amount of places – in fact, I mentioned it recently to Sarahfeena, that the majority of retailers play secular music. That was part of why I thought the reaction to her statement was so bizarre.
This is simply unfathomable to me. You are saying that if I’m in a minority, I shouldn’t even decide not to shop somewhere based on that place’s religious atmosphere. I don’t understand this at fucking all. (Please for the love of God don’t come back and say you’re not saying I shouldn’t, just that it’s stupid and pointless). You also can’t imagine being bothered by any level of broadcast of prayer as long as you don’t have something to throw away or someone to interact with. I doubt most people would feel the same way.
It’s not that the music will make people more religious, but that it’s part of making public places unacceptably geared toward one religion. Why should the majority religion have any special right to control those spaces? Greater numbers don’t equate to special virtue.
I also live in a non-Christian enclave; pointing out that there are still pockets where Christianity doesn’t reign is demonstrating ignorance of just how much of this vast country is Christian. Are you denying that Christianity is so dominant in this country that it effects every aspect of domestic and foreign policy? It’s not one big happy fruitbasket of cultures. It’s a fat watermelon squishing a lot of little grapes, and to suggest that the grapes are just not doing their part to get along is fatuous.
Cite on the brickbats, torches, and pitchforks?
By “let management know,” she meant “demanded that the store cater to her personal whims.” And she was surprised that the manager didn’t immediately cave.