You Have A Lot of Fucking Nerve, Man

[Scylla]

Marxboy:

Hopefully I’ll make a finer job of it then when I discussed it with Olentzero, but despite the best attempts to deny it, Hitler was a Socialist.

I wouldn’t worry about it though. Hitler was a Socialist about the same way Charles Manson was a Christian.

I’ve made a bit of a study of this recently, and there’s an old thread around here somewhere with it. To me this is one of the more telling problems with socialism. Despite it’s noble ideals, it seems highly vulnerable to subsumption by a charismatic leader. In other words, it’s a vehicle to Totalitarianism.

Tom Wolfe goes into detail about this, and modern socialism in general in his recent great essay “In the land of the Rococo Marxists.” You can find this in his book Hooking Up which was published last year.

It’s a pretty recent and well-known essay on the topic and origin of modern socialism and does an excellent job of dissecting it’s major flaws.

In any discussion on modern socialism I’m apt to use that as my starting off point.

Tom Wolfe is known as a very careful researcher. I’ve never gotten caught in a falsehood while relying on him as a source.

I’d suggest reading the essay, and doing some follow up research. Your idealism may not survive the experience. Then again, it may. It’s not my opinion that the concept of Socialism itself is flawed. Rather, the problem is the fact humans would have to implement it. I don’t think it’s within our nature to be able to do so satisfactorily.

And, again, apologies for my earlier outburst.

[Guinastasia]

coughcoughGodwin’s Lawcoughcough

[_Uigi]

Feel free to make reservations with Aeroflot, CubanAir, or YakAir, but please do one or the other.

(p.s. If you’d like to, also feel free to make reservations for some of your friends.)

Bon Voyage!

[Mockingbird]

*Originally posted by 'Uigi *
**Feel free to make reservations with Aeroflot, CubanAir, or YakAir, but please do one or the other.

(p.s. If you’d like to, also feel free to make reservations for some of your friends.)

Bon Voyage! **

You first.

[jayjay]

*Originally posted by 'Uigi *
**Feel free to make reservations with Aeroflot, CubanAir, or YakAir, but please do one or the other.

(p.s. If you’d like to, also feel free to make reservations for some of your friends.)

Bon Voyage! **

Ah, “love it or leave it” makes its debut.

I was wondering if it was going to miss the whole show…

jayjay (not a socialist, btw)

[_Uigi]

*Originally posted by Hastur *
**

*Originally posted by 'Uigi *
**Feel free to make reservations with Aeroflot, CubanAir, or YakAir, but please do one or the other.

(p.s. If you’d like to, also feel free to make reservations for some of your friends.)

Bon Voyage! **

You first. **

Hastur,

I went back in posts to understand the context of your response, but found only a single incomprehensible item.

p.s. I was addressing another poster.

[even_sven]

Hey *Marxboy!

As a closet commie, I’ll give you some support. I got in trouble plenty of times during high school for covertly taping up political flyers during the wee hours of the morning.

Communism is severly misunderstood in this country. People say, “been there, done that”, but the truth is that we havn’t been there. Russia wasn’t communism. China certainly isn’t communism.

They say Communism won’t work, but that is because they have their minds set up so it can only see one thing- one way. The great lie of capitalism is that it is natural and therefor inevitable. The truth is that it is neither. Heck, right here on the Straight Dope we have people doing work (research and teaching) for no compensation. It happens all the time…when rich people do it we call it a “hobby” or “pass time”.

I didn’t used to be so sure. But, the more I though about it, the more I realized that almost every problem I can think of boils down to one thing: class.

As someone who has gone from one of the poorest high schools in her (somewhat large) city, to one of the richer colleges of her state, I can say that class is very, very real. “Voting with your dollars” doesn’t work, folks, when you don’t have any dollars. I’ve been where people can’t afford to eat. When you can’t eat, you don’t vote with your dollars, you don’t vote with anything. You get nil. Very few people get out. Class, for many reasons, mainly education, is self perpetuateing.

Anyway, what kind of “freedom” can you have when your freedom consists of being able to choose who to give your money to, who to make rich?

And if Communism won’t work, and everything is fine how it is…then what is everyone so afraid of?

Happy Belated May Day, Marxboy

[even_sven]

Dammit! The capitalist pigs brainwashed me into not previewing! I apologize to my comrades!

[jayjay]

*Originally posted by 'Uigi *
**Hastur,

I went back in posts to understand the context of your response, but found only a single incomprehensible item.

p.s. I was addressing another poster. **

I’m not Hastur, but I’ll take a stab at it…

a) I believe his point was that this is the USA. MarxBoy has as much right to push socialism as you have to push the dark side of conservatism. So, in other words, you can get on the plane and fly to Singapore just as well as MarxBoy can get on the plane and fly to Cuba.

b) This is a message board. I don’t know if anyone explained this to you, but that means that there’s no such thing as “I was addressing another poster.” All comments made are fair game for whoever wants to post, with the exception of someone asking for some piece of information that only the person addressed may have. This wasn’t that situation. I imagine more people than just MarxBoy are allowed to find the intimation that differing philosophies are not welcome in the US to be offensive…

jayjay

[_Uigi]

*Originally posted by jayjay *
**

*Originally posted by 'Uigi *
**Hastur,

I went back in posts to understand the context of your response, but found only a single incomprehensible item.

p.s. I was addressing another poster. **

I’m not Hastur, but I’ll take a stab at it…

I believe his point was that this is the USA. MarxBoy has as much right to push socialism as you have to push the dark side of conservatism. So, in other words, you can get on the plane and fly to Singapore just as well as MarxBoy can get on the plane and fly to Cuba.jayjay **

1.) Marxboy (and company) can hop any plane bound for any destination outside the USA.

2.) You’re correct. I erred in my second comment. Oops.

[jayjay]

*Originally posted by 'Uigi *
**
1.) Marxboy (and company) can hop any plane bound for any destination outside the USA.
**

sigh Why, exactly? Agreed that socialism isn’t necessarily the most practical or easily implemented political philosophy. Admitted that it works much better in smaller populations like the European republics. But that doesn’t mean that socialism is illegal to advocate in the US. Telling someone “love it or leave it,” which is what you’re basically doing, is nonproductive and actually pretty assholish. Just so you know.

jayjay (who can be far too nice for the Pit…)

[_Uigi]

*Originally posted by MarxBoy *
**OK, here’s the story.

A couple days ago, on May Day, I was handing out nice, non intrusive, non-attacking Socialist pamphlets at my school.

These were really pretty damn gentle, and at the end they gave the web address for a Socialist Youth group I am a member of, and an invitation to learn more about Socialism and maybe join…

… She got bitched at, …her fucking father found out my name, …had the fucking nerve to call my house and tell my parents … I was “attempting to start an anarchist group”. What the fuck is going through your head, you big dumbass southern cock?

Fucking shit. I hate people like this fucker.

Oh well, I’m not in trouble, I did nothing wrong, but I just hate overbearing fuckheads like this man.

MarxBoy **

I’ve gotta ask:
1.) Were you handing out pamphlets at a private (i.e. funding/association/etc) school, or were you handing this stuff out at “public” school? Public? Oh, my!

2.) Can you give a definition of a “gentle” Socialist pamphlet?

3.) Would you please provide the name of the Socialist Youth Group that produced the pamphlet? Do you have the doo-dads? How 'bout their url?

4.) What is a “big dumbass southern cock”? What breed of bird (chicken/turkey/ostrich) are you refering to?

5.) Did you get layed by the daughter of the “big dumb ass southern cock?” Did Daddy find out? Oh, my!

(where the hell are kids headed these days?)

[Scylla]

Hey, he wasn’t saying “love it or leave it.” He was remarking on the benefits of a free capitalist society which allows transportation at will, unlike those other forms of government in which you need government approval and a visa to go across town.

It’s a perfectly innocuous point and not a put-down at all, right?
Not buying it? Just play along. Corner a rat and he’ll fight all day. Best to leave them an out.

[Lucki_Chaarms]

As though you deserve it, I’m going to respond to you, 'Uigi.

A) I go to a private school. That’s where I passed these out.

B) A “gentle” socialist pamphlet is one that is made so as not to be inflammatory in the Rage Against The Machine, REVOLUTION NOW! Way.

C) A big dumbass southern cock is a good ole boy republican conservative idiot who lives down here.

D) No. You are an idiot/asshole and let me tell you that you’re arrival will not likely be very well recieved on these boards. You are a troll. You are an asshole. She actually apologized to me for her parents being such freaks.

Where is this kid headed? To bed.

MarxBoy

[Lucki_Chaarms]

Oh, I already posted the site, but since you can’t be bothered to read a thread before posting in it, I’ll repost it.

http://www.newyouth.com

I have huge doo-dads.

MarxBoy

[_Uigi]

*Originally posted by MarxBoy *
**I’m going to respond to you, 'Uigi.

…Where is this kid headed? To bed.

MarxBoy **

Sweet dreams Karl.

(I loathe Republicans, I loathe Republicans, I loathe Republicans, I loathe Republicans…(keep countin’)…

[Scylla]

And as far as I can see, Marxboy’s only “crime” is improper use of a school copier.

He’s smart and polite. So, I’d say kids are coming along quite well these days if he’s an example.

So, he’s studying socialism. Big whoop. He could be playing Pokemon.

I happen to think he’s absolutely dead wrong with his assertions, but I remember when I was young and naive. Like Yoda says though, the lure of the Dark Side is strong, and and I have no doubt he’ll come over to capitalism in good time.

Back on topic:

I hear this “Oh Russia and China weren’t really Socialist.”

Ok. Fine. I don’t know what they were, but fine.

Show me a good working example of Socialism in action on a National scale, and I’ll reconsider the idea. You really can’t expect me to take a politically philosophy seriously when every time somebody tries to implement it it turns into an instant disaster, can you? I’d sooner drive a Ford Pinto.

And, if we don’t have a working example we can point to and evaluate, how can you expect people to take mere idle theory seriously?

I have my own theory of government. Take Libertarianism, and implement it. However, add in wandering judges trained since birth for this very special purpose to arbitrate all disputes. Have a small tax to support them and to enforce their decisions. Make them independant of society. Train them to react harshly to frivoulous complaints, and to punish evildoers and those who deal unscrupulously with extreme measures.

It’d be like Judge Dredd meets Ayn Rand.

The judges will provide the necessary control to head off the abuses possible under Libertarianism, and we will have a perfect, and free society.

I call it “Scyllagism” or just “Silly” for short.

That’s my theory, and I’ll publish a manifesto. My theory will be every bit as valid and relevant as Socialism. No?

[Odesio]

*Originally posted by even sven *
**Hey *Marxboy!

Communism is severly misunderstood in this country. People say, “been there, done that”, but the truth is that we havn’t been there. Russia wasn’t communism. China certainly isn’t communism.

They say Communism won’t work, but that is because they have their minds set up so it can only see one thing- one way.

**

Or some of us might understand exactly how pie in the sky communism is suppose to work but we don’t see how it will work in practice. What were all the Communist apologist saying about the USSR in the 20’s, 30’s, 40’s, and 50’s?

**
I didn’t used to be so sure. But, the more I though about it, the more I realized that almost every problem I can think of boils down to one thing: class.

**

How do you get rid of class? There are to many different kinds of people for us to be equal in every way, shape, or form. I can think of no classless society, can you?

**
Anyway, what kind of “freedom” can you have when your freedom consists of being able to choose who to give your money to, who to make rich?

**

What kind of “freedom” can you have in a communist country where the state dictates your life?

**
And if Communism won’t work, and everything is fine how it is…then what is everyone so afraid of?

**

Because we’ve seen the horrors that resulted from countries who gave it a shot. Capitalism seems to have worked rather well for western europe, Japan, Taiwan, South Korea, Canada, and the United States. If you can give me examples of any nation which went commie, or attempted it, and was successful I’d sure like to hear it.

Marc

[Scylla]

I keep waiting for somebody to say it.

[matt_mcl]

Up until rather recently, Canada and Western Europe were regarded with some suspicion by the US as quasi-socialist. That they are also ranked as having a higher quality of life than the US may not be a coincidence.