As to the word “toxic”: it is overplayed and, as a rhetorical device is ineffective at changing minds or opinions. But in terms of metaphor it ain’t that bad @Slithy_Tove, in that the “poison is in the dose”. Too subtle a message for general consumption though. It instead is heard that being “masculine” is poisonous. And that is conversation stopping.
Personally I am not sure where I stand on whether or not gendered personality traits are exclusively culturally driven. I used to think that, but the huge body of evidence on transgender as an innate biological characteristic, on inherently having a specific gender identity that matters, forced me to a much less absolutist position. There is something biological behind our gender identities that clearly matters.
The personality traits that are often considered gendered? Seems to me like they often aren’t? The contexts in which they play out are gendered culturally. Protective? “Mama Bear” ferociously protecting her children is not being “masculine”; Stoicism? Strong emotions expressed by men, tears even, as your team loses the big game, huge celebration and joy on winning, is not being “feminine”. Competitiveness? It is stereotypically “feminine” to compete in venues of fashion and social influence, “popular, I want to be popular ” …
And the functionality of those traits in each of their gendered contexts is in their degrees. Again, the poison is in the dose.
In terms of models of “masculinity” for young men, bullying and abusing power is not strength in any gender context. “Real men” are brave and secure enough to have the interests they have. As are “real women.” Being so insecure as to need to put on a show of caricatures of cultural gender roles is neither being masculine or feminine. It is just pathetic. It’s like the old bit: those who try hard to be cool won’t be, because the truly cool don’t care what you think.
Because I dislike logical inconsistency, and because I’ve seen men complain - IMO with some justice - that when feminists say ‘toxic masculinity’ they just mean ‘masculinity’, and there is no way to be masculine that’s non-toxic. So I wanted to explore whether this is indeed a consequence of standard progressive views on egalitarianism, or whether you would come up with some other answer. And based on this:
It does sound like you think there is no non-toxic masculinity that isn’t reducible to ‘being a good person while male’. Which is fine if that’s your view, I was trying to establish if that is indeed the case.
Perhaps this isn’t even the problem these men are identifying. Maybe they’d be fine with this, and their real issue is the denigration of traditional masculine characteristics that for various reasons are more common among men. I’m not sure.
But there is a problem; boys are failing in school and young men are turning to these genuinely toxic influencers in high numbers. I’ve seen a lot of complaints recently that boys are treated as ‘defective girls’ at school, with typical girl behaviours and interests seen as standard and typical boy ones as bad or wrong. See eg this article.
And young men are clearly not happy with the messages they are getting from ‘respectable’ sources on how to be a man, how to approach dating etc. It’s easy for them to wrongly blame women when their efforts fail, and plenty do blame women, in an extremely toxic way. But as a society we need to offer them an alternative that appeals to them and works. One suggestion I’ve seen is to bring back the idea of ‘masculine virtues’, which on the face of it doesn’t seem like a bad idea - but maybe it is if it means implicitly discouraging women from displaying them. Maybe it should rather mean more celebration of traditionally masculine virtues in and of themselves, without the baggage of implying they particularly pertain to men. I don’t know, I’m more brainstorming and looking at implications than trying to advocate a particular course of action.
IMO this comes up in dating because attraction is not rationally based. People might have egalitarian ideals, and consciously admire those who break gender stereotypes, but that doesn’t mean they can will themselves to be attracted accordingly. Knowledge of this may be driving both men and women towards fulfilling those stereotypes, to trying to find ways to distinguish themselves as men and women rather than as people.
Broad brush stroke. A few do. And many who use the phrase mean negative entitled bro style behaviors only.
Personally I am strongly male identified and I don’t especially care if others see me as masculine or feminine or both. There is zero doubt that I am a product of family of origin conditioning and expectations based on having a male phenotype, and by society at large. I am not consciously aware of those impacts though. And I am not consciously aware of teaching my sons to behave differently than I did my daughter.
So yeah. Just be a good person and your honest self.
The problem for those young men under the thrall of toxic influencers is not “masculinity”. It is dealing with their sense of failure. They have no easy path to actual proxies of power that appeal so they huff their chests out and try to “act tough” instead. Anyone telling those who are losing in society that there is a simple answer and it isn’t their fault will always find a crowd willing to buy what they are selling.
What’s logically consistent about demanding a hard line division when one clearly doesn’t exist?
I know some people I would call extremely masculine who accomplish ‘being a good person while male’ just fine; so I very much disagree that I think there is no non-toxic masculinity. Possibly we don’t mean the same thing by the word.
While I am also not sure, it seems to me that most of the objection comes from feeling that the virtues they want to think of as masculine only count if only the men can have them, and women mustn’t have them; and/or from thinking that exhibiting such virtues somehow automatically entitles them to sex and deference from whatever woman catches their fancy.
I think that schools very often require both boys and girls to spend huge amounts of time sitting still and silent; and that girls are also often socialized to do this from birth, while boys are not. This requirement is hard on a lot of girls as well as on many boys, but the earlier and broader socialization of girls in this direction probably exaggerates a small amount of (on-average, not found in every individual) natural difference to the point at which, when they get to school, it seems much more damaging to the boys.
The latter makes sense. And the other thing that makes sense is celebrating the positive uses of those virtues, and making it clear that when they’re used negatively they’re not virtues at all. (This is also of course true of what this society categorizes as “feminine” virtues. And of course those also need to be valued – including in men and boys.)
That’s true; but it seems to me (as one who hasn’t used one) that dating apps are trying to present it as if it were – specify the age, size range, and profession you want as if those rationally-described things would automatically produce attraction, and as if anyone who hasn’t got them will rationally not be attractive to the person who thinks that they want those specific criteria.
Yeah. And it’s a distraction from their trying to get healthy power over themselves; very useful for those wanting to get unhealthy power over them.
In addition to your point, there is the broader issue of why there are even notions of masculinity and femininity across cultures. Even if the specific characteristics aren’t universal, I believe that the very notion of gender is. And I also think that there is likely to indeed be very broad consistency as to what constitutes masculine and feminine within each culture
That suggests to me something innate to the notion
Of course, like nearly everything in nature, these traits are fluid, and exist across a spectrum. So there are going to be traits that are mislabeled, and even among any clear marker there is going to be overlap between the sexes- some men are going to be more feminine than some women, and some women are going to be more masculine than some men.
That, of course, is perfectly fine. The problem seems to stem from the human inclination to add rigid categories to nature’s spectrum. This is a source of enormous stress.
Some people feel deviant or defective because they aren’t adhering to these artificial categories. They may try to reject the paradigm altogether. Or become laser focused on displaying certain characteristics as a show of success.
I think in both cases, when applied to males, both reactions give rise to toxic masculinity: both the incel and the bro.
Sure. It’s much better to accept yourself and be yourself rather than trying to mould yourself into some kind of gender role that doesn’t fit. Braver, too.
The idea that hormones have no effect on personality is pretty implausible. We know they have rather dramatic effects on the behaviour of animals, many of which match sex differences seen in humans. We nearly all get to experience hormone fluctuations over our lifetimes, starting with the dramatic changes at puberty. We can see what happens to people who have lower levels for medical reasons, or increase their levels for contraception or body building. And we can ask transgender people the effects of completely switching hormone levels. There are also statistical differences between male and female brains, probably due to prenatal testosterone exposure in males. It’s obvious culture plays a role, but where’s the evidence it’s the only cause?
This is definitely not anything I would ever advocate for.
The neo-reactionary movement is far from standard conservative ideology. I’ve met some of these people online - one tried to recruit me - and my overriding impression is that they are scary fuckers who I would prefer to avoid.
Isn’t the Jewish calendar also luni-solar? Hannukah moves around relative to the Gregorian calendar, but it’s always at roughly the same time of year. It doesn’t rotate through the seasons like Ramadan.
Growing up in the 80s, I don’t recall anyone ever saying 6’ Sigourney Weaver was too “masculine” in her role as Ripley. Or Kevin Bacon was too effeminate teaching a Midwestern town how to dance.
I’m not sure changing gender standards are the main problem.
I’ve seen a couple of constant themes over the years:
Income
There’s been frequent mention in this thread about how income corresponds to male desirability. A man who doesn’t make much money isn’t going to have much luck with women. But I’ve also seen the flip side of that where men in high income jobs think their money and position will make them attractive. But they are still charmless nerds and a lot of women have their own money so the women they go after are ones where there is a significant power disparity.
Social Media
It’s been mentioned a few times. But social media creates a “BBD” effect where it always seems like there is a better option. And there is for the top percentage. Prior to social media. a man who didn’t check all the boxes (tall, rich, etc) might still be a catch in his social circle. Now he is theoretically competing with every man online within dating distance.
Unrealistic expectations
I’m a bit under 6’0" heterosexual educated male who earns well over six figures with a full head of hair who is reasonably in shape. What percent of datable men out there fit that description (and I’m married already). Men are similarly unreasonable, if not more so when it comes to their expectations for women. Even Tom Brady and Gisele thought they both could do better.
General Immaturity
A lot of guys have “Peter Pan Syndrome” well into their 40s and beyond. I’m not saying everyone needs to (or should) settle down and get married and have kids. But I see a certain “frivolousness” about a lot of people in that they seem unable to take on any serious commitments or greater purpose if it interferes with their social life or hobbies. We all need to unwind and socialize, but I think a grown adult male who has no desires beyond drinking with his bros or playing videogames would be considered a “great catch” to many women.
Narcissism and inflexibility
Another common theme I see is this highly self-centered and inflexible view of the world. Good luck finding someone to put up with all that.
I think there are no gendered virtues, but some virtues are more commonly found in one sex or the other. I think strength is a virtue for everyone, but it’s more common among men. I think being nurturing is a virtue for everyone, but it is more common among women.
(Sorry if this has already been said, I’m catching up.)
I kinda hate being defended, too, unless i actually need it. I guess i don’t find “protectiveness” terribly attractive. I get annoyed when parents are overly protective of their children, too.
Agreed. Surely we can praise virtuous men without needing to praise them just for being masculine. Because the flip side of this is denigrating men who happen to be strong in virtues that are more commonly found in women. And that is certainly not good for society, nor for most people in it.
Naw. A person who is male and displays traditionally masculine virtues is cool. But yes, I’d like to praise men for being virtuous, not for being masculine. Same with women.
But it is how it plays out for the men you reference.
These frustrated men failing at, well life, but specifically at love, are play acting at being what they believe is being “a real man.” They are insecure about their manliness, so they have to act the part.
And when that hammer doesn’t work they conclude they need to use a bigger hammer. They have no other tools.
I don’t think defining some other arbitrary definition of masculinity would help them.
We all have whatever is innate to ourselves that drives our gender identity, and the internalized gender behavior expectations learned from babyhood on. But when it comes to making decisions on how to act, acting masculine or feminine is a poor guide to being either: just decide by trying being a good person, the best one you can be, guided by who they honestly are. These frustrated young men? Pretty sure that when they do that they will be being seen as masculine.
I’ll try putting it another way: should I
“act my age”? What a silly concept. I am my age. However I honestly act is acting my age. No matter how anyone else says someone my age should be acting. When the artificial standard conflicts with reality of who I am, I believe the mirror is correct.
Not sure why the “naw” is there. You are agreeing with me. Most are not meaning “traditional masculine virtues” in the “toxic” umbrella, but dysfunctional caricatures of them that are harmful or even abusive.
I am consciously aware of those impacts, because in some ways I don’t fit the expectations very well. And I do try to consciously modify my behaviour in order to avoid judgement; more so in the past, more so in real life than online, where the consequences of that judgement are less. I don’t think I’d fit in any better if people saw me as a man, though; I’d just get judged for different aspects of my personality instead.
The fact they need proxies of power to appeal is kind of the issue here, no? Egalitarian messaging from society is at odds with what is actually attractive to the opposite sex, so it’s easy for them to feel gaslit by it. This is an example I’ve seen a few men share on social media recently: their female partner asked them to be more emotionally open - share their sadness, fears and so on - and when they did, she found it off-putting and unattractive, and shut the guy down. Advice given to young men has to be realistic, and reflect what young women really find attractive, not “you’re a nice guy, just be yourself”.
Is it logically consistent to say there is a good kind of masculinity, if you believe men and women should aspire to the same things and be judged by the same standards?
Well, what do you mean by it? That would be helpful to establish. How are those people masculine?
This is the usual accusation thrown at men who complain they are unsuccessful in dating. I think it’s perfectly reasonable to feel frustrated if you are trying hard to appeal to the opposite sex and it’s not working, especially when you see other people not exhibiting those virtues having far more success. I do think women who are unsuccessful in dating get far more sympathy than men in the same position, and it’s unfair.
I don’t really believe girls and boys are socialised differently on this, but yes, it is hard on both, and it’s cheap and easy to fix, too.
Yes. I actually think we could do with more criticism of negative uses/overdoing of ‘feminine’ virtues in the current moment, but that’s for another thread.
Good point. And it doesn’t seem to work very well.
Isn’t rejecting the paradigm exactly what people are doing here?
I guess this is what I actually believe too, and it’s good to say so. They also may be more attractive to potential partners in one sex vs the other, but that doesn’t make it bad to have those virtues.
Because the Chinese calendar is also lunisolar. My daughter’s school recently celebrated Chinese New Year; they decorated the classroom, and tried food that sounds like standard takeaway fare.
I have never had that reaction from any woman I have been involved with. If we cannot safely share our thoughts and feelings with each other, we are not actually romantically involved. We are not even ‘friends with benefits’. True friends share such things. We are just two people who meet up often for dinner and sex.
My beloved’s father died a year or two ago. I am terrible with dates, but I remember the whole thing quite well. Over the very strong objections of her mother (the woman hates and despises me), my beloved insisted that she needed me to stay at her apartment while working (I work remotely in a virtual call center) and spend all my off time with her at her parent’s house. I immediately agreed. I was in the room with my beloved and her mother when her father died.
Since then, her mother has declined. My beloved moved back into her parent’s house to be able to care for her. Her mother denies having any of the medical problems she obviously has. She refuses to see a doctor and will not comply with their advice. She has a few years left at most.
My Mother has finally started to decline mentally. She was always asbent minded and forgetful. But she is now obviously in the early stages of dementia. No one can say how bad her mind will get or how fast. She may need to move into an assisted care facility. She really really does not want to. She was supposed to have died about ten years ago.
My beloved is very concerned about her mother. I told her that when her mother dies, I will come over immediately (even if I am in the middle of a call with a client when I receive the message) and stay with her as long as she needs me.
I told her that I will need her to do the same when my mother dies. She said that she expected me to ask that, and promised that she would.
I suppose the difference between us there is that my reaction has always been, “I’m a woman. I’m doing this. Therefore this is a thing that women do.” I’m a girl, I’m doing this, therefore it’s a girl thing; it can be a boy thing too. I’m a woman, I am doing this, therefore it’s a woman thing; it can be a man thing too.
I have sometimes, mostly as a child, been forced to modify my behavior in order to avoid consequences of acting “out of gender”; but I don’t remember ever not having been indignant about it. (Acting “in gender” when I feel like it/in those areas in which I feel like it is something else entirely. That is also just being me.)
And most of the people I’ve spent time with, professionally or personally, have had no problem with this. I’ve certainly met some who had problems with it – I’ve been lucky enough to be able, for the most part, to not spend much time around them.
The context in which I think that makes sense is when an adult or older child is throwing a tantrum. Two year olds throw tantrums because they haven’t learned how to express frustrations in any better manner, and because they haven’t learned what’s a minor annoyance and what’s a major problem. They’re two, they can’t help it (though they can be guided to learn better.) Adults shouldn’t be throwing a screaming fit because there isn’t any candy, or whatever.
If what you mean by acting one’s age is not reading children’s books or not rolling sideways down the hill or whatever, I’m entirely with you there. Read and play however you feel like.
I think it’s a mistake to confuse virtue with sexual attraction. There’s some overlap, of course. But tall men and women who have large bosoms and narrow waists tend to be more sexually attractive than their peers, and neither of those traits is related to virtue.
I don’t think it’s wrong to tell young men that many women find power attractive, and that they might improve their attractiveness by developing whatever power comes naturally to them, whether that’s physical strength or skill at chess. But i don’t think “cultivating power” is a virtue, either, and those same men should be warned that they should also cultivate virtues, like respecting and caring for others.
And as suggested above, there is toxic feminity, too, when women try so hard to be “feminine” that they neglect to be good people.
Also, i feel like this thread could use a little levity:
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