So that’s what cognitive dissonance looks like: you’re not one to tell others how to raise their kids, but you can find no excuse for bringing a small child to a bar and dismiss the parenting ablities of those who do. Seems to me that you’re being sweepingly - and offensively - judgemental here.
Besides, the word “bar” can be a pretty loaded one {no pun intended} which covers a multitude of sins: “You took your child to a bar?” I wouldn’t take my son to a dank fetid smoky pit at 2am, but he’s been to the pub plenty of times, starting from when he was a toddler, and he likes it.
He gets to sit at the table with Mum and Dad and the other grown-ups with an orange juice and some chips, he enjoys being socialised, and he learns the rules of how to behave in public. I’ve had staff and other patrons initially roll their eyes at seeing a little kid in a pub, expecting shrieking and tantrums, and then later come over to compliment his behaviour.
It seems to me that exposing a child to sensible social drinking - with food, company and conversation - in a decent place at a reasonable hour provides a good example of how drinking ought to be treated, rather than as some sordid shame from which he should be shielded. Provided it’s handled responsibly, what’s the problem?
Man, I spent a lot of time in bars, as a kid. Both parents are practicing/denying alcholics. My dad used to get me drunk as a toddler, then he and his buddies would laugh because I would keep falling down. He says–laughing still–that I was very serious; kept trying to figure out why all of a sudden I couldn’t walk straight. Good times.
Like I said, if you’re there eating lunch or dinner or something, it seems to me that you’re not just having a beer.
As I said in my earlier post, it’s when you’re just bringing the kid in, you alone with your child, so you can get a beer or three, that I get really, really worried.
Sorry to offend, but I’ve seen far too many children left by the peanut machines while Dad goes to drink down a few pints, or Mom grabs a jack and coke. It’s nasty.
And you’re right, “bar” can mean anything. I apologize for any miscommunication there as well. If you’re going to eat, as I said before, I would consider that more of a sports-style restaurant or pub/grill. By “bar”, I mean the place you go to drink. When I say I can’t imagine any reason why a person would bring their kid to a BAR, I’m talking bring the kid in, and then go sit and drink a few pints. Not eat… just drink.
Again, I apologize for any offense, I’m sure you’re a great parent.
I wouldn’t take my kid (age 4)to an actualbarbar, but a bar and grill that serves food is OK. Her father and I have taken her to the Tam O’Shanter a couple of times, and no one batted an eye when we sat with her at a table in the bar area (alcohol for us, a Shirley Temple for her, sandwiches for all).
Before I become the subject of my own Pit thread (bad mommy!), I should add that the Tam O’ Shanter is one of the oldest restaurants in the LA area, and boasts an elderly clientele as well as a Scottish/Robert Burns theme - my daughter loves the fireplace in the lobby.
Also, I forgot to mention my favorite baby-in-a-bar story: Many years ago, my extended family took a trip to Shakey’s for my father’s birthday. Dad ordered a mug of dark beer with his pizza, and became engrossed in conversation. My niece, then 18 months old, was sitting in a high chair next to him. Upon noticing the mug, she promptly grabbed a straw and gathered up what she thought was cola. :eek: I realized what was going on and alerted her mother just as the straw was about to reach her mouth. A good time was had by all (except my niece).
Yeah, there may be a difference in terminology: to me, a bar is exclusively a drinking establishment; a place which also serves food and coffee and has a decent hanging-out atmosphere is probably a pub or a cafe: there may be some cultural differences, but there are plenty of places here in NZ where you can bring a kid - so long as they behave - and just hang out with friends, family and assorted sprogs.
No disagreement about not bringing your kid to some noisome dingy hole or thumping meat market, though; for that matter, a place which is family-friendly on a Sunday afternoon probably isn’t on a Saturday night or when there’s a big footy game on.
Well, yeah, they have. And it sucks for responsible parents, sure. But put yourself in the position of someone who sees a kid in a car, alone, on let’s call it a moderate day. Is it better to mistakenly make too big a deal out of it when the parent is just about to come back, or to mistakenly make too small a deal out of it when the child is going to die of heat stroke before the parent comes back? How many of the former mistakes equal one of the latter mistakes?
If I understand correctly, it’s against the law to leave your kid in a car not because it’s always dangerous to the kid, but because passersby and police shouldn’t be put in the position of having to make life-or-death decisions based on inadequate information about the parents’ intentions.
I guess it is kind of a low-risk, high-consequence situation. If I were to ignore a child alone in a car, and later find out he had died as a result, I would truly have a hard time living with myself. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, I have to assume that the child is in danger.
Different cultures, all the rest of it. I’ve always admired the way that France has encouraged integration of children into adult activities. Because bars often have children around, generally they tend to be less sleezy, and I wonder if that isn’t one of the reasons that the French are less prone to the excessive drinking other cultures like the US and the UK are prone to? I’d also argue that exposure to adults drinking demystifies alcohol, and makes it less likely kids will see it as some great adult taboo that they want to try early. YM/OMV
Either way, I’ll still take my sprog into my local if I’m meeting some friends for a couple of pints and a catch up. She’s happy enough on my knee or in her pushchair, and the bars in Scotland now are all smokefree (thank fuck) so she’s not exposed to much harmful.
While I feel I can understand the OP, I think what we have here is a failure to communicate cultural differences.
In rural Wisconsin, home to many taverns (that’s what they are officially called), the bar is just an extension of the home. It’s like an off-site rec room where all your neighbors and coworkers gather after work and before dinner, or for dinner on Friday nights. It would seem silly to have to drop the kids off somewhere else while you stopped at the bar for a drink and a meal when the kids have to eat too, and everyone knows everyone else, so why not stay together?
You might as well say that kids don’t belong at church functions, either, since they could be called an extension of the home, too.
It’s been decades since I was in Australia, and things may have changed. But when I was last there, they had “clubs” that were ostensibly created to support athletic teams, but their “clubhouse” was a family entertainment center for members and guests. It included movie theaters, dance halls, assembly rooms, restaurants and bars. Lots of bars and lots of Aussie beer. The memberships were family memberships and the expectation was that the entire family would come to the place on weekend nights. The teenagers brought dates, the adults went to the bar, and the kids played arcade games, all in the same building, same floor and often separated only by minimal partitions.
Now I realize that other societies/states build a barrier between drinking establishments and prohibit underage non-drinkers from setting foot in a bar, but that’s just a different concept.
Actually, per capita, the French drink more than either Americans or Brits (the World Health Organization keeps stats on this). I also remember seeing a news story several years ago wherein there was a crackdown beginning on drunk driving in France. According to the story (which was on the ABC national news), it was not at all uncommon for someone to have a bottle or two of wine with their restaurant dinner and then attempt to drive home.
Whereas my parents never once took me into a bar, and I’m a selfish, petty, unreliable, manipulative, vindictive, venal, unseemly, absquatulating asshole.
