Most people don’t consider marriage to be a mere contract or license–meeting of minds, with consideration, defined by negotiated written terms. (Some people belive it has religious significance.) It’s a relationship between people which typically involves affection and family bonds. Marriage has a long history of legal recognition–for convenience, it has developed a penumbra of helpful legally recognized property/tax and similar rules (which is partially why the status is coveted by gay people)–but most people don’t marry to get legal rights. Witness people who consider themselves married but not in the eyes of the law.
If we consider only the legal/contractual rights established by legal systems with respect to marriage, then divorce is the equivalent of a breached contract and should be analyzed in economic terms (if you even can–how does one make the counterparty “whole”?). It is precisely because many people think marriage is more than a contract (a relationship) that they view divorce as worse than a breach of contract.
Divorce may sometimes be the right decision, but I’d still feel worse about it than breaking a lease.
annewaldron, that’s not always the case. Quite frankly, for my next door neighbor’s kids, the best thing that happened is that he divorced their mother and she’s out of their lives for the most part.
I hope I don’t cause any offense by saying this… but if your parents divorce was so horrible, if there was that level of hate and animosity when they broke up, what makes you think it would have been any better for you if they’d stayed together?
I view divorce as a failure of a marriage, it doesn’t necessarily mean it is a failure of the persons involved (although it certainly can be.)
Personally I tend to view many divorces as somewhat negative, in that I think it’s a divorce that would have been best avoided by the marriage having never happened in the first place. I lose a lot of respect for people when I think they enter into a marriage without considering the importance of the decision, and then I lose more respect when it ends in abject failure.
Divorce in and of itself isn’t a bad thing per se. But I do typically view many divorces as the culmination in a long series of bad decisions.
Personally I think people should go into a marriage with significantly more thought and planning than they do today.
Also, I’ve read that the “50%” number is disingenuous. Because certain things like a college education, being married w/out having a pregnancy involved, decrease your marriage’s particular chance of failure to a significant degree.
Granted, both of these groups have an anti-divorce bias, but they do seem to cite their statistics pretty well. The statistics show that in the vast majority of cases, divorce is bad for the children. With this in mind, I agree with annewaldron and Clothahump on this issue. If you have kids, you should do everything you can to stay together for the children and divorce should only be a last resort.
From the first article cited above:
I would love it if someone would debunk the sites I linked to above.
Actually, I will try to debunk them also, but I can’t just now as I am posting in haste from work. Just to clarify: I think divorce is bad for children and all the serious research I’ve seen seems to validate this opinion. That said, I have not see any studies on the long lasting effects of divorce. If a couple has no children, divorce away… If there are negative effects, well, you should have thought about that before you married.
No offense taken. And no answer to that. When I think about it, I think that they should never have gotten married/had kids. But then I wouldn’t be here. However I’m here and a mess. Not always- but sometimes. Thanks, Mom & Dad.
I mean WTF? Divorce hurts people, ya know? Why do we go through this over and over in our society? Are we that stupid? It makes me angry enough that I don’t make sense, so I’ll shut up and keep reading.
OK- I mean this kindly, and as a child of a divorce, my dad’s subsequent remarriage, THAT divorce, and then the RE-marriage of my parents to each other.
(and no, they learned nothing of communication and respect thru the whole damned rollercoaster ride).
at 36–it is time for YOU to take charge of YOU. You had a shitty childhood and that hurts like hell. It does NOT define you-nor should it. I respectfully suggest counselling/therapy for you.
I am on the brink of my own divorce (and believe me, the children of divorce do NOT divorce lightly)–and all I can is that it is hell living a lie. End of story. I value myself enough now (after therapy) to want more than a cold, lonely marriage.
YMMV
Not all kids are permanently scarred. I am somewhat impatient with cites like those above, because no one’s life is perfect. Parents die–I’m sure those kids feel quite a great deal of stress. Some kids are fostered–those are less than ideal circumstances–but for some reason, we dump on divorced parents. As if anyone gladly enters into this (I’m sure there are some numbnuts who do).
How about people are trying to do the best they can to live their life? What of partners who change so much that you might as well live with a stranger? What of emtional abuse, not to mention physical and substance? What of families of origin who are so intrusive and dysfunctional that they cause the marriage to fail?
How about we stop judging folks who don’t live their lives to our narrow and exacting standards?
Honestly my parents’ divorce was one of the least traumatic things in my life. It led to a marked increase in my quality of life, added stability and a chance for the whole family to base their lives on something that was sustainable.
But what do I know. I see no crime in divorce. Any lifetime vow is a pretty dumb vow to make. We arn’t psychic. We can’t see the future. And we can’t change how things are no matter how badly we’d like to. We make these vows based on hopes and dream, not realities. And we should be no more held to them then we are held to what we said to the answer of “what do you want to be when you grow up” when we were kids. Of course with children involved all steps should be taken to give them a stable and loving family life. But that doesn’t mean they have to stay together. Heck, I think basing who you raise kids with on who you’d like to fuck is also a pretty dumb idea.
Personally, my model is serial monogamy. 4-6 years of bliss, followed by a peaceable seperation. Should I for some reason want kids I’ll have to rethink this. But perhaps by then I’ll be ready to ‘settle down’ and I will have a good idea of what the rest of my life is looking like.
I think divorce should be the deadman-switch of marriage: if you don’t take active steps to renew your marriage every year, it’s automatically dissolved.
Well, not really, but I’ll oppose any move to make divorce any more difficult to get than it is now. If adults have the right to choose to marry, they should have the right to choose to unmarry.
I think **jsgoddess **was trying to say, “Temporality is not invalidating.” (That’s John Updike, BTW. Figures, doesn’t it?) That the fact that a marriage has ended does not necessarily mean that it failed. Sometimes a marraige that is sure to end in divorce is the best realtionship you can have at the point you’re at in your life. Then it isn’t anymore, and it’s time to grieve for the things you’ll miss and move on.
I am not trying to be judgmental eleanor, and I am sorry if I came off that way. I am also sorry about your situation, a loveless marriage is a horrible thing. I was in a loveless relationship (lived with her for 6 years) and the end was definitely the lowest point in my life. I hope everything works out for you and yours…
Regardless, I am also the child of divorced parents, and I am also 36 years old. I was 12 years old when my parents divorced and a good kid. I was an A and B student, had lots of friends, and was pretty well adjusted. When my parents divorced my GPA dropped down to a D- (overnight, the report cards are shocking to look at). I started doing drugs and committing petty crimes, dropped out of high school at the age of 16, and finally started dealing pot, acid and meth. I was arrested for several things before I was eighteen, including dealing, and was basically a mess. My father split physically and my mother split mentally and I was alone. When I became 19 I started to pull it together. I got a high school degree from an alternative high school (at 21), got accepted to college, did well, and finally graduated at the age of 29. All the while getting lots and lots of therapy. I continued my education and went to graduate school, got a MS and am currently working on my PhD while working for a small high-tech startup. It’s all good. Now. But for years it wasn’t. And I can lay that directly at the feet of my parents. (I’m not even going to talk about my sister and what she went through).
I am not angry with them, and I haven’t been for years… I don’t even really blame them. They were young and never should have gotten married. If I were my dad, I probably would have left my mother also. It was bad and it was killing them. Both.
HOWEVER, why the hell did they get married? It’s a serious commitment and I don’t understand people that don’t take it that way (and plenty of people don’t seem to understand what they are getting into). Once kids are involved the responsibility increases exponentially. At this point, I believe you should do everything you can to make sure your marriage is filled with love and romance for your children. This doesn’t mean just getting along and being civil, this means flirting, dating and loving each other so you kids have a healthy family to bloom and thrive in.
I was married at the age of 32 after dating for 4 years and living together for two. It was never perfect, and many times it was hard. Her family was dysfunctional and destructive. They tried to blackmail her and other members of her family to break us up. They had me followed by a PI for months and spread lies about me in an effort to end our relationship. They were hateful and mean.
Now, however, I have two beautiful daughters with the hope of another. I will never (so help me) get a divorce if there is anything I can do about it because of my girls. I work hard to keep romance alive and well in my marriage because I never want my girls to have divorced parents and two households. My wife and I are on the same page in this regard. This can be difficult after being with my wife for the last 8-9 years. I love her dearly and would do anything for her. She is my best friend and a great lover, but that does not mean that I am not tempted by people outside of my marriage. That does not mean that we don’t snipe at each other about money and responsibilities, or that we don’t get bored or frustrated with our lives from time to time. But we try to keep it alive by keeping the other person interested, not by selfishly looking outside for things that we want. The grass may be greener, but we do our best at fertilizing here. (I’m good at this, being full of shit and all).
Do I understand the need for divorce? Yes. I do. Abuse (of any stripe) should NEVER be tolerated and divorce is the ONLY option if the abuse doesn’t stop (immediately). But change? Color me doubtful. How does someone change so much that you might as well live with a stranger? I don’t know anyone that has changed that much in my lifetime, except from mental illness or depression. My first reaction at hearing that explanation is that the couple did not know each other from the outset; that they married a vision, a dream, and did not really get to know the other person (or the other person lied the entire time - talk about abuse!). I may be wrong and YMMV. Reagrdless, divorce may be the only option in a case like this but it still breaks my heart if there are children involved.
My apologies for ranting and venting, but I feel very passionately about this subject. I am not meaning to cast judgment on you or others. How can I know what your life is like unless I am you. For me marriage and family is the most important thing I have in my life and I will do anything I can to make it succeed. I may be naïve in my beliefs, we shall see…
Finally, this is GD, so I provided some cites showing that divorce is bad. Bad for the spouses and bad for the children. Without assigning guilt or judgment, are these cites enough to demonstrate that in the majority of cases divorce is a bad thing that should be avoided. Are they enough to show that couples should stay together even though they both wish for a divorce? My first reaction is probably; in the majority of cases where children are involved divorce should be avoided if at all possible. My cites, and mentioned previously, are probably biased, but I have not been able to find anything to rebut them.
I hope my husband and I never divorce. I will do my best to make sure that never happens.
If a couple feels like they just can’t live together anymore, they should divorce - kids or no kids. It is worse for kids to hear their parents arguing all the time than it is for the parents to divorce.
That said: a parent who uses a child as a weapon against the other parent is the lowest form of malignant pond scum. I have absolutely no respect for a person who does that. My parents divorced when I was 5, and my mother never once said a bad word against my father. She let me find out for myself what a selfish SOB he was. When I was in my late teens and in my first really serious relationship, she explained the reasons for the divorce and why she felt she had to take that step. It was a big step in 1965. She did the right thing.
I can understand divorce. I can never understand using your child as a weapon.
Did you understand my post? (bolding in quote above mine). Yeah–BOTH partners have to work at it. We have gone to marital counselling twice. The first time, looking back, I think she was a poor therapist. The second time–he went 3 times and I went for 2 years. He does not want to invest in “us” or change. So, I should put up with his BS and all the rest of it (which I am not about to post here) for what? So that my kids know they’re loved? They know they’re loved because unlike my parents, I invested myself in my kids. My kids will be fine. I would never use them against my husband --I only want custody so that they can stay in the school district for stability and it’s a blue ribbon school. He understands this and all the while proclaiming his great love for his kids, he wants to move out of state.
End of story. It’s hard to dance alone, unless you’re Fred Astaire.
I cannot speak for most people, but IMO, infidelity can be overcome in a marriage. I am not talking about temptation to stray as you are–I am talking about complete lack of emotional support.
I REFUSE to stay in this marriage and give my kids-both sons and daughter-- such a poor model of a healthy relationship. I should take being completely ignored for another 13 years so that the youngest can go to college–having learned no positive communication skills from his parents–and then get a divorce?
I think alot of folks here have convinced themselves that the parents staying together is always better for the kids. This is not true–I could swap stories with you and we could play this game of who was damaged most by our parents’ divorces, but that’s a fool’s game.
This is your life–you only get one shot.
I am not sure how to reply to this civilly, but I will not have my experience dismissed and marginalized. Because YOU don’t know how someone can change so much as to be unrecognizable it doesn’t happen? Get out more–meet more people.
Good God–it’s not a live liver donation without anesthesia–it’s a common fact of today’s world. I absolutely deplore those who marry lightly and spawn kids, only to ignore them and satisfy their own selfish whims–I think we all do.
But alot of divorces are not due to selfishness or immaturity. Mine is coming from an increase in self esteem that had shown me how much I was used. Yeah-maybe I did wake up. Maybe I’m the one who changed and he can’t handle the real me. What difference does it make? I do not agree that because I said “I do” almost 18 years ago that I should be imprisoned with no release for the sake of the kids.
Better that they should know that both parents love them and support them. Better they should not have to listen to the endless bickering and fights, the cold silences and the sulking.
We tend to idealize the nuclear family here in America, but there are many ways of raising kids and many ways of having family and loved ones. I do not hold the nuclear family up as the gold standard of either parenting or even family life.
I have to go to work, so don’t have time to search for cites. But I will say this. BAD THINGS HAPPEN TO EVERYONE. The reason I discount these types of studies is that they seem to only look at one thing. It’s like any study of juvenile deliquents will only have divorced parents as the root cause. PLENTY of kids “go bad” in “loving” together homes. I think we also tend to blame every frailty we have on the fact that our parents divorced–it’s a handy scape goat for lots of weaknesses: “can’t get it up? My parents were divorced. Can’t find the right man–my Dad left my Mom. Can’t hold down a job–I was so young when my parents divorced.”
It becomes the catchall excuse that grown adults still use. Sorry to sound harsh, but work needs to be done–you cannot change what happened to you. But you can talk it out, change your responses, work on acceptance.
What about studies of kids whose parents died? Or abandoned them to a hospital or foster care or whatever? Hell, we all know that is less than ideal–but noone really gets their knickers in a twist about that. Dad drank himself to death and heads are shaken, but Timmy’ll be alright, but Mom wants a divorce because Dad is a jerk and the hammer comes down.
I am not saying divorce is innocuous by any means–but it is only one of many life events and decisons. It has been demonized in our society–perhaps society needs to adapt and absorb this, like it did (to some extent) women working and having careers. Do a study in another 20 years and see where the kids are then.
I may well be too close to this to be an effective debator. But I will argue with anyone that a person should give up their chances to pursue happiness all for the sake of the kids. I don’t buy the whole martyr stuff. It’s a waste of a life–in this case, MY life.
What does background have to do with the ultimate percentage that end in divorce? If 50 out of 100 couples divorce, it’s still 50%, regardless of education or any other background detail.
Why would you lose respect for people because they divorce? Isn’t it respectable that people would try to better themselves? I don’t see how respect figures into the equation. It either works or it doesn’t.