Didn’t somebody once say something like “it takes a village to raise a child”?
In any event, Mangetout wasn’t engaging in conversation with the little 4 year old tyke. Mangetout was correcting the li’l tyke’s misbehavior. I would argue that any adult has the right and responsibility to do so.
Mangetout doesn’t have the right to impose a punishment on the kid, but he wasn’t doing that here.
Sua
Apparently I must explain.
If I went outside and saw my 4 year old engaged in conversation w/an adult and walk away crying, this would be a problem.
How on earth would Mangetout be able to prove what he said/did, didn’t say, didn’t do?
Now, I’m sure that Mangetout didn’t cuss at her, threaten her etc.
However, how would the other parent know? And, no, you’re not allowed to cuss at my four year old, or threaten her (if I had a 4 year old).
the taking a village thing is fine, however, this doesn’t mean that my child gets to be subjected to everyone else’s view on what proper behavior should be, or proper consequences for said behavior. (I’ve known people who yelled at kids for playing on their own sidewalk 'cause they were ‘too noisy’ or whatever, as well as those who thought that swatting a kid with a stick was the proper punishment for small violations). Do I think the child’s behavior was wrong? you bet. and mom needed to correct said behavior. The way this happened, perhapd mom would know what she’d done wrong, perhaps not. And, in any event, Mangetout has perhaps set himself up. How can he prove he didn’t lay a hand on her?
.
wring
I don’t entirely disagree with your point about preventing future problems, but if a four year old’s parent’s don’t want adults to speak to her out of their view, then that four year old ought not to be on the street out of their view. I don’t generally have correct the behavior of four year old, in large part because I don’t believe I’ve ever seen a four year old on the street alone. I’ve often told twelve year olds for example, to stop riding bikes and skateboards down the slides younger kids are using, and I would hope another adult would correct my son if he were to do this.
Which brings me to belladonna
When I was a kid, I had a fair amount of freedom to wander, and it wasn’t unheard of to see 5 year olds playing “unsupervised”. I put unsupervised in quotes because they both were and weren’tt supervised . Their parents weren’t being outside, and no other adult had agreed to be responsible for them, but if the weather was at all nice, there were adults sitting on nearly every stoop. And those adults would have deterred a (rare) abductor, sent a child going toward the street back to the stoop,etc and I suspect their very presence improved the behavior of the “unsupervised” kids. Just like I know my behavior (and therefore my safety) was improved by the fact that I rarely walked down a block without at least one person who knew me either outside or at the window, since I knew any misbehavior would be reported to my mother before I got home. I don’t see much of that anymore.What I found strange about Samantha Runnion was not that five year- olds were playing on the street without someone right on top of them, but that as far as I could tell (and I could be wrong) there doesn’t seem to have been any adult presence in the area at all.
I do have a question though. I’m curious as to why you would require a child to be older to stay home alone than to go out and play. Or were you thinking of specific values of each? I let my children play within sight of my front door before I allowed them to be home alone, but I allowed them to be home alone for short periods (an hour or so) before I let them wander out of sight
Rationally, I’d say because when a kid’s out playing, he gets the thrill of being “indedpendent”; but the parent is still at home to help out/keep an eye on them/provide guidance/make lunch/call around looking for them if they’re late coming home, etc. I look at it as a trial run for times when they actually are on their own.
On a more emotional level, it springs from knowing that some of my happiest memories of childhood are slow walks to the ice-cream parlor (a mile from my home), sitting under trees and reading outside the library (3/4 mile), and riding my bike down the hill behind the high school (2 blocks)–knowing I was on my own, feeling free from my chores and my parents and my endless line of siblings waiting to snatch my toys. I wouldn’t want to deprive my son of similar experiences.
I guess I could come right back and ask you why, when you don’t like to let your kids out of your sight to play, leaving them home alone seems okay. And your response would probably lay along the same lines of reason vs. gut feeling. This is one of those things that nearly everybody has an opinion on, and no one’s will be the same, it seems.
As for what you said about neighbor’s supervising, I couldn’t agree more. I grew up on a dead-end street where everybody knew everything that was going on at any given point in time, and sometimes it seemed like I had four sets of parents! If I had been the girl that Mangetout corrected, no WAY would I have run home and tattled, because then I would have probably gotten yelled at a second time for “upsetting the neighbors”. 
bella
Ooh, lots of responses.
Nothing has happened yet - nobody has visited and I don’t think there will be any further problem with this particular issue; I have a strong suspicion that when the father returned home he will have actually taken my side. The child in question plays with our children a fair bit and he has told me more than once in the past “If she causes a problem, sort it out” (sounds a little open ended and vague mandate, but we were talking about her habit of pushing people over at the time).
On reflection though, I probably could have handled the thing a little better, sigh live and learn.
I’m finding the discussion about leaving children unsupervised fascinating though; I may start a GD thread about it.
Part of the joys of childhood was playing unsupervised? No, that’s the joy of being an adult. That and eating ice cream for breakfast.
I’m in the camp that a 4 year old should not be outside of mom’s (or other adult) direct supervision. 4 year old kids just don’t have good judgment yet. A 4 year old could find a lighter, run into the street, go off with a stranger, or start dumping trash into her neighbor’s yard without realizing she’s doing something wrong. My 4 year old nephew managed to climb up onto a shelf in his garage and push the toolbox off. He cracked the cement in his garage floor. Now think what would have happened had his brother or sister been standing underneath. Mantegout is absolutely right for criticizing neighbor for not supervising her 4 year old child.
As far as “yelling” at the child, I think you did fine, Mantegout. The mom overreacted. If my child came in crying, saying one of the neighbors yelled at her, I’d ASSUME my child did something dumb and then go talk to my neighbor to see if I could smooth things over. If I saw a child dump trash into my garden, I’d definitely say something to her. Nicely, of course, but Mantegout had a definite right to complain.
Of course now that the mom is upset, you may want to talk calmly to the father and explain the situation. Being enemies with your neighbors is no fun.
doreen - my point isn’t about the kid’s mom. My point is that Mangetout cannot prove what he did/didn’t say, did/didn’t do, given those circumstances. and I’m suggesting that to keep yourself safe, that dealing directly with a 4 year old, can lead to potential problems. (unless you have a long history w/the family and it didn’t sound like he did).
So, my cautions weren’t directed towards kid’s mom.
and no one’s picked up on my other point - we believe that Mangetout behaved reasonably (ie that his words and actions towards the child), however, not everybody will. And I do not think that everyone else in the world has the right to subject my child to their standards of conduct and repercussions. For example, would you condone/accept the neighbor in this instance yelling profanity at the 4 year old? telling them that they’re worthless etc? Why not? after all, they’re merely ‘correcting bad behavior’.
PunditLisa–for the record, I was talking about kids in the ~9,10,11 agegroup. For me that was fifth through seventh grade. I never meant to imply that four-year-olds should be allowed to roam unattended, in case that was unclear.
bella
I was wondering about that – glad you cleared it up.
You were reminiscing about walking a mile to the ice-cream shop unsupervised, and yet the topic of discussion was about a four-year-old. So I was thinking “Four-year-old? Walking a mile from home unsupervised? No way!” Something wasn’t jibing.
BTW, belladonna in your opinion, is it OK for a four-year-old to walk alone a few hundred yards away to play board games with a friend? I’d say “No way,” personally. Others’ MMV.
No offense wring, but why should he have to? Are we just assuming that any contact between an adult and a child is somehow perverse and malicious? If so, that’s pretty sad. There are a lot of kids in my neighborhood, and they sometimes come and talk to me while I’m working in the yard, and it never even occurred to me that I’d have to prove I wasn’t harming them. Maybe I’m naive, but I figured that would be the default assumption. Again, no offense intended, but if your children have some ‘perimeter of suspicion’ that somehow brings my character in question just by being around them, please keep them out of my yard.
(I mean that in a general sense obviously. I’m sure they’re not your kids.)
I agree as far as the grandmother was concerned. The child had the presence of mind to shout to her friend; from what I’ve seen of parents/caregivers, they can hear their kids from pretty far away and would have heard this. Then again, I grew up on a quiet street and we definitely played outside with no adults around at all. If my Mom was zoned out inside and I was too scared to shout, I could see how someone could have done this kind of thing.
dammit. my prior post got lost. In response to dumbguy “why should he have to prove yadda yadda yadda…”
From the mother’s perspective: 4 year old female child comes running in, scared, crying something about the ‘bad man’ over there. Response is generally to question the child. Questioning a child can be a very tricky proposition (remember the McMartin case?), especially to discover what happened, without leading the witness (did he touch you??? in a bad place?), and suddenly Mangetout is having to answer that question.
Especially in this case when the actual ‘crime’ is so relatively minor (ie, not breaking property, damaging property, hurting people or herself), I’m not seeing the justification for running the risk of having one’s actions be in question.
belladonna,
I wasn’t really clear. I wasn’t sure exactly what you meant by being home alone- if you meant for an hour or for the whole day, and to me, it would make a difference. I still don’t let them spend the whole day home alone, but I let them spend an hour home alone before I let them start the “home for meals only” routine ( BTW, when I said my kids had to stay within sight of my front door, I wasn’t actually at the door watching. I just wanted to be able to check on them easily).
wring, Mangetout shouldn’t have to prove what he did or didn’t do, and at any rate, while I won’t say it’s wrong to avoid the risk of problems by avoiding correcting the child, neither will I say it’s wrong to correct the child simply because the parent might cause a problem.
I wouldn’t condone or accept such behavior toward a four year old, an eight year old, a twelve year old or a twenty-five year old. Simply because it’s rude. But just because someone else might scream profanity at the twelve year olds riding bikes down the slide doesn’t mean I’m wrong to tell them to stop.
my point, doreen was that the stance of “I have a right to correct your child’s behavior” is one I"m not completely comfortable with, unless you make some qualifications, such as “for minor infractions, please refer them to me for correction”, so that A) I can be aware of these behaviors, and B) it’s up to me to determine the proper response.
I **have ** seen people go overboard in their reactions to OPC’s (Other People’s Children), using the “I have a right to yell at your child” basis, and, like I said, I am not comfortable with it (such as cussing a blue streak and telling them they’re worthless expletives). hell, my own grandmother at one time told me that my ‘bad behavior’ had given her a heart attack on the spot.
Specifically in Mangetout’s example here, the infraction was so relatively minor, I don’t see why he’d not refer to the parent.
and again. Sigh. I’m not saying that he had the obligation to ‘explain/prove’ however I believe that he put himself at risk by confronting her on his own.
Remembering the most recent horrible child killing, you had a small female child reacting negatively to an adult male. Do you really not see the potential for a mom to react in fear when her small daughter comes running home upset 'cause of the “bad man next door”?
In your example about the bikes - the child’s ‘wrongful act’ has a potential for harm to themselves/others. vs. the example in the OP, where there’s no harm, no danger, no damage, but yes, still wrong behavior.
Mangetout-if I were you, I wouldn’t allow my children to play with these kids.
A four year old who would tell my kids to “fuck off” would not be welcome at my home. I don’t want my kids picking up that kind of language from their friends.
They’ll pick it up from me and/or their father-just like I did.
wring, you may have a point if the kid had been dropping litter on her parents’ lawn. In this case, however, the runt was dropping litter on Mangetout’s garden. There wasn’t “no damage” - Mangetout’s garden had trash in it.
Mangetout had every right and reason to take reasonable steps to protect his own property.
Sua
Sua - uh, huh. My point (sigh) - was the child in danger? No. Was some one else? No. Was the child destroying property? no.
RE: damages. Yes, over all, having trash in his yard is annoying to him. However, I doubt that you’re really attempting to claim any significant damage from the single empty plastic bag she dropped on his lawn.
yes, he has a right to complain. IMHO, to the parent in this case. By confronting the 4 year old, I’m suggesting that he’s put himself in a position where his actions can be called into question. Do I believe that he behaved badly to the child? no. for the fiftieth time. However, will the other parent believe that? dunno. Maybe, maybe not. and if they believe he did something or threatened their child etc., they would be w/in their rights to file a complaint on him, and then he’d get to be investigated etc etc. all over a frigging plastic bag on his lawn.
And, if nothing at all else, the parent should be notified about poor behavior of their kids.
Years ago when I caught several neighborhood kids breaking into a vacant house next door, I said nothing to the kids, but did tell each parent.
Okay, wring, I’ll qualify . I have a right to correct your child’s behavior (generic you) as long as I tell you about it ( assuming I know who and where you are, a big assumption), make it a simple statement (“Don’t throw your trash on my lawn”), and require nothing beyond stopping or reversing the offending action ( picking up the trash) ,
I think you’re conflating two ideas . Certainly, there is no right for me to take whatever steps I might feel are necessary to correct any behavior that I just don’t like. But it doesn’t follow that I have no right to say anything to a misbehaving child without a parent present unless it’s a safety issue. And that’s the part I don’t get- where because some one else might go over the top, I have to be silent.By your reasoning, I would have to sit by and watch as the kids leaving the school on the corner throw their trash in my front yard and pick my flowers because the parents aren’t there, I don’t know either the kids or the parents so I can’t tell the parents, it’s not a safety issue and it’s trivial.It’s not so trivial to me when I spend a half-hour cleaning other people’s trash.I would also have to keep my mouth shut as the skateboarders grind on the church steps, because, again,it’s not a safety issue, I don’t know the kids or the parents so I can’t tell them. Can’t say anything to the kids who try to cut ahead of me in line, or block the aisles in a store, or play a radio at top volume under my window. In short, I have to be the victim of every unsupervised rude and ill-mannered kid I come into contact with.
BTW, I think there is a reason for mangetout not to have waited for the father- by the time he got home (since the mother apparently doesn’t speak English well) there’s a good chance that the girl (if not mangetout) would have forgotten all about it. And to the best of my recollection, four year olds don’t respond well to being corrected for something they don’t even remember soing.
fine by me doreen.