You're family, that's why I took you in. Now it's time to go.

Folks, duffer here is in a bad way. I can’t take this anymore. I was thinking of putting this in MPSIMS, but the language and venom would make it end up here anyway. Long story short, I’m thinking about abandoning the house, trading the car down for cash, and leaving for Nevada.

That said, some background My wife and I bought our house last year with cash. No, it’s not a mansion, but it’s comfortable, in a good area, and it’s ours. Until June. My wife’s brother (39) with 2 kids (12, 14) asked to stay with us temporarily. He was renting the lower half of his friend’s house, but was asked to leave so a different guy could move in. I wasn’t sure why he was asked to leave, as my BiL always seemed like a responsible chap (single father of 2 by choice), and has had the same job for almost 10 years. I’ve since learned otherwise.

this may start to ramble, but I’ll try to stay on course

He gets food stamps for the kids, as their mom doesn’t have much to do with them, and certainly doesn’t pay anything for thier living. Why would that be a problem? I mean, at least he’d be able to kick in a little for the food bill, right?

Well, yes and no.

He’ll buy groceries, but it’s shit. You see, he likes really spicy foods, and it has to be junk. I swear to Christ, this is a typical shopping spree for him. 2 or 3 boxes of cereal and a gallon of off-brand milk for the kids. A few jars of ultra-hot salsa or other sauce. Some potato chips. No, not chips most people eat (meaning everyone but him), but shit like Jalepeno with Bleu Cheese chips. Occasionally there will be a box of Cheez-Its. Nope, not the regular ones everybody with a taste bud likes, it’s gotta be the specially flavored type. Don’t get me started on Chex Mix flavors he buys. Just trust me. He’s genetically programmed to find the most off-the-wall, least popular flavor of anything available.

So much for helping out on the food bill.

Back to the housing aspect. ( I warned you this may ramble a bit. Well, it’ll jump around a bit, too).

Last year he had an apt. paid by the Housing Authority. All was well till he decided to move in with aforementioned friend. So during the last week of June he came to my wife and asked if he could stay with us for a month while he waited for new housing that was set up. It was her brother. What the hell was she going to say? Well, she said OK if I agreed to it.

Now, to be fair to all involved, I made my bed by saying yes. But this is family. You don’t fucking turn away family in a time of need. I could have said the kids could stay, but he’d have to find something else. But again, you don’t turn away family. I’m Scottish, we don’t do that.

So he asked to stay for a month to get the new place and I wait. And I wait. I’m still fucking waiting! (more on why I need him to move later) I asked 2 weeks ago how it was going with the housing and he casually says that the only thing available now are apartments and there won’t be a house available until October 1st.

Got that? October 1st! So much for a month to help him out. :smack: He expects to stay here until then. :mad:

Now, I don’t necessarilly mind him being here. I like him, we get along, all is normally cool with us. But he hasn’t done a fucking thing to show any appreciation!

In 5 weeks, he’s taken the garbage out twice. He’s washed the dishes once, and he watered the garden last weekend while my wife and I were at the lake. He cooked spaghetti once and pizza twice. He brought a 12 pack of beer home one night that he stole from his dad’s bar. That’s it, folks. That’s the benefit I’ve seen. All I think of is the extra water we’re paying for. The extra electricity when he insists on running the Central Air when we’re not home. (Can’t disable it, he knows how that’s done) Anyone know what natural gas costs? (He’s never paid a gas bill so he doesn’t.) One thing he likes to do is buy a bag of cheap wings and cook them at low heat for 5 hours. IN A GAS OVEN!!! How much has he offered up in cash for utilities? (Cable, Internet, elec, gas, water, soap, laundry detergent, etc) I’ll give you 3 guesses and the first 2 don’t count.

Finally, the solution I thought would save us all. My wife and I really want to move to Nevada. We have for a few years now. MiL wants to head down there as well. So why not just have BiL move into Mil’s apt, and have her move in with us? (we have 3 bedrooms) She loves to cook, lives to clean, I love her (she is SOOO much like my late mom) and would make sure to not seem like an imposition. This would help her get the money saved up, pay off her credit cards, and still be able to kick in a few bucks to help us out, while still getting ahead.

Nope. The way it’s looking (too late, she gave the 60 day notice that she’s leaving) is she’ll move in here, BiL will move in there. AND SHE"LL STILL HAVE TO PAY THE RENT!!!

I need to wrap this up. I’m close to having a brain hemmorage (sp?)

Anyone that doesn’t like my posts, have a laugh. Anyone that does or is indifferent, please give me some advice or words of encouragement. As I said in the beginning, I’m seriously thinking about getting the car title, trading to a lesser car to get the cash and just go to Nevada myself to get set up for my wife and MiL to follow down.

I can be a real prick, and a major bad-ass when I’m pissed. I just can’t do it with family. Maybe I’m ultimately a pussy, as I’d rather avoid family conflict. But as it stands now, I just have too much shit going on my head to even care if I write off the house. I need to get away from it all.

Dude, I feel your pain, that sounds awful, but why on earth haven’t you and your wife said something to him about this?? I can understand a (not very considerate) person figuring that they could stay with family for a short time just as a pampered houseguest, and I can understand a (very generous and supportive) family being willing to put up with that for a few weeks.

But when you found out during what you thought would be the last week of his stay that he was planning to stick around for another two months, that’s when you needed to say “Whoa. We weren’t planning on that, and we’ll have to change the arrangements around here a bit if we’re going to be able to swing it.” And that’s when you needed to get into the specifics of exactly what you needed him to contribute to the household, financially and/or otherwise, for his extended stay.

And since you didn’t say it then, you definitely need to say it now.

But again, you don’t turn away family. I’m Scottish, we don’t do that.

You’re not supposed to hit family over the head with a claymore and bury them in the back garden, either. And if you let this situation go on until it drives you totally batshit and you snap, you might end up breaking that ancient law of Scottish hospitality instead, or at least having a meltdown that would be almost as destructive to your family and marital harmony.

It is not inhospitable or unkindly to tell the people you’re living with that you need more help from them than you’re getting, and that they need to pull their own weight.

In any case, though, why are you blowing a gasket over this now, when (as far as I can tell from your narrative) you’re about to exchange your not-very-desirable housemate of a brother-in-law for your beloved and helpful housemate of a mother-in-law, with no downside except that she won’t actually end up saving the rent on her apartment? And can’t she tell him that he needs to chip in for that rent, anyway? You know, you can be a loving and supportive family without letting this guy totally free-ride you to the point of a nervous breakdown.

I truly understand that you need to get away from it all. “It All” should be your new nickname for the three extra people who live with you.

You have been more than generous with your time and space. Give him written notice that either rent money, food money, live in maid service money and utility money are due on pay day or he and the kids need to live in their own apartment as many other people do.

I’m assuming that you and your wife and communicating about all of this including your feelings.

Please reconsider doing this on your own. I’ve seen so many marriages split up permanently this way. If you want to move, go for it! But do it at the right pace and with your wife.

Most importantly, belly up to the bar and get that man out of your home. You aren’t doing him or his children any favors my encouraging him to be a free-loader. And you won’t feel comfortable in your own skin until you can do that.

~ also the daughter of long ago Scots ~

Kimstu I see what you’re saying overall. That’s why I said I might just be too much of a pussy to stand up for myself. If it was a family friend or something, it wouldn’t have made it to this forum. But, being family I just try to bite my tongue.

One important point you reminded me of. He has the two kids, so it’s not like we can force him to pay rent on MiL’s place either. The only way to enforce it is to kick him out entirely. Doing that means he can’t provide housing for the kids, and therefore he’ll lose the kids. (Although we’d take them in). I’m just trying to avoid that stress. I’m not kidding when I say I’m keeping a tenuous hold on sanity here. My wife and I are having mini-snipe sessions with each other. It’s because of the stress, and we know it’s because of the situation so we don’t take it to heart. But how often can you argue with a spouse before the resentment sets in? No matter the cause?

Maybe I’m sub-consciously looking to be a martyr. I don’t know. But I have too much shit going on with my head to have to run my life as well as his. (Oh Christ, I forgot about him seeing the married woman and leaving the kids to us.) I swear folks, this rabbit hole is much deeper than I’ve let on. I’m trying to just focus on what I have a modicum of control over.

tries to decend the book depository stairs

I appreciate the words. And what I quoted is what I feel! The main problem with is, I can’t demand money, because it isn’t there.

I know he has to go, and I ain’t waiting for October. But it’s a deal where it’s going to forever alter a relationship with a person I like. I’d love to rant about how selfish he is, but I’m not even sure he knows what he’s doing. (And not doing).

Truth be told, I felt almost a relief after hitting “submit new thread”. It’s been building for so long I had to blow up somewhere. Better here than going to a bar, drinking a bunch of whiskey and calling for bail money. :wink:

FWIW, the SDMB, enven if nobody had replied, has helped me keep together tonight.

I really appreciate everyone’s time.

Let me see if I understand this correctly. He’s had a steady job for 10 years, gets food stamps (that are supposed to be) for feeding his kids and has been living in subsidized housing, rent free, for an unspecified time, as well as living with you for nearly 2 months without contributing anything to rent, utilities or other household expenses. So what the hell does he do with his money that “it isn’t there?” Where is it?

Dude, you guys need to sit down with this man and have a chat. Either he needs to buck it up and take a 2nd job to cover his expenses, or he needs to work out a proper budget to live within his means and quit mooching off other people.

I’m sorry to hear of your troubles. I know it’s not an easy situation. But it is definitely not going to get better unless you and your wife grow a pair and stand up for yourselves. No one can take advantage of you unless you let them. Good luck!

Which is why I said I may just be a pussy after all. I love to get into a good fight, I’ve just never done it with family. Family it too important to me. As far as the money is concerned, that’s where the hint to the married woman he’s seeing came in. I may have to add a screed about that to give a little more of what’s happening. Not tonight, though, it’s all I can do to try to keep up with everything tonight.

But thank you for the words, Shayna

Seems to me, even if the BIL can’t contribute financially (which still seems in question, IMO), there are other ways he could contribute: cleaning up, doing yard work, minor home repairs,cooking some meals. Why not at least talk to him about these?

A few years ago I was in therapy with this amazing psychologist. He’s actually very well known in the psychiatric community, I expect that one of these days he’ll be president of the APA since they keep nominating him. And one day I was telling him about a problem with my father, something that was bothering me that I felt incapable of addressing with him directly.

My therapist said “Stand up”, and we both stood, and he stepped right on my foot. Not lightly. And I said “Ow! You’re stepping on my foot!”. “Oh”, he said, stepping back. “I’m sorry, I didn’t realize I was standing on your foot. I’m sorry.”

His argument was that by not raising issues directly, we actually create far more distance and resentment than would otherwise occur.

You have every right to state your expectations for anyone who is going to live in your house for any period of time. You have a right to demand certain behaviors - theoretically it would be good to hash these things out ahead of time, so that if your demands are unpalatable your BIL can make other arrangements. But it’s certainly not too late now, especially with another month tacked on.

However you have to pick your issues, too, and establish your boundaries. The fact that your BIL doesn’t feed his kids properly is a separate issue from his freeloading - and your not liking his snacks may be superfluous. I’m not sure you can fairly expect him to take on MIL’s apartment, either; by your reasoning, that’s what family does. But his reasoning’s not the same and if you try to impose your own, that’s stepping over the line.

Separate these issues and irritations out, decide what’s really worth fighting for and what’s none of your business (although annoying), and start a dialogue.

See, but it doesn’t necessarily have to be a fight. It could just be a chat.

My brother is kinda clueless about stuff. He’ll do things that take advantage of other people and make them feel bad and have NO IDEA that he’s done them.

I used to get furious and freak out and rant and rave, which of course, would piss him off. Now I just tell him “Ya know, it really picks my butt that you do X. It makes me feel taken advantage of, and as if you don’t care about my feelings. Don’t do it any more.”

Without exception, he feels terrible about it and does better. I get the impression that your BIL is a bit like my bro - it seems like he’s clueless, as opposed to an asshole. Just talk to him about things. You never know - it might go really well.

I know exactly what you mean by that. I’m the same way. Here’s a technique I’ve learned that helps: You don’t have to prepare a lengthy speech, you only have to say one thing to him: “Bill, can I talk to you about something?” That’s it. That’s all you have to do. It’s nearly effortless. The rest takes care of itself, trust me.

Unless his name isn’t Bill. Then you’re fucked. :smack:

duffer, my love, you have to take care of this now. It’s been building too long, and you’re going to explode. He’s going to do something like leave a half empty glass of milk on the coffee table with no coaster, and next thing we know, there will be CNN and AP reporting about the savage slaughter of a man living with his relatives. And all your neighbors will shake their heads and say, “He seemed like such a nice man. Quiet. Kept to himself.”

Tonight. Not tomorrow, not next week, tonight. Sit him down, and calmly hash things out.

Duffer, I’d love to give you some words of wisdom. But, since I put myself in this same situation last January (and it’s still going on), I really can’t come up with anything. If I could, I’d have done it myself.
I could say kick him out or talk to him about it, or any number of other “helpful” ideas. Since I’m in the same position though, I understand how truly difficult this decision is. I’ve spent the last 8 months trying to figure out how to tell my fiancee’s brother that he needs to get out. It’s really hard. My situation is actually very similar to yours. I’m sure that once we come up with a way to do it, we’ll all feel much better. In matters of family though, you have to tread lightly.

All I can really say is that I truly feel for you and if you need to talk to someone in the same situation, I’m here for you.
I do have to agree though, once I started MY Pit thread about it a month or two ago, I felt much better. It’s easier to deal with a situation like this when you can bitch to someone about it.

duffer I have been in a very similar situatation twice. Both of which didn’t involve children. Both of them basically ended when I said (once to a very dear friend and once to my sister):

“Look, I love you lots, but I’ve done all that I can for you and if you don’t leave, I’m going to have to kill you. Don’t think I won’t.”

They laughed (and doubtless didn’t know how close to serious I was) and then we had a conversation, and then, blessed relief, they left.

And I will never, never have anyone live with me except in the most dire of emergencies ever again.

I really hate people. That’s the lesson that I learned by having people live with me. Sure, they look nice enough, but when you live with them…

Point is, you really, really have to say something. Another point - he might be lying about the housing available for one reason or another.

He is imposing on you and your wife. He is freeloading, and it is not your responsibility or even your wife’s responsibility to support him or his kids. It is his own responsibility, and you are doing no favors to him, you, your wife or his kids to allow him to shirk it.

He should be paying his own rent. And, if you don’t say something, he’s going to be living with you for months, and months, and months.

[full disclosure:]

My sister sponged off me and my wife for 6 months with no job or even looking to find a job when I was unemployed and we were living off my wife’s minimum-wage back-breaker. She often complained because she didn’t like cube steak, and didn’t like the food I was feeding us. Never lifted a finger, just watched TV all day.

Then, again, when she finally decided to get a job after living off of my mother and other family members for another few years. In this 3 month stay she kicked in a grand total of $25. She also slightly more than doubled our electricity bill during her stay and ruined my sleep both times by stomping around when I was in bed. She didn’t pay us anything because she was “saving up for an appartment”. This time, she did the dishes once or twice. Of course, she also said “Jeez, don’t have sex while I’m here! That’s disgusting!” When she was home all the time that we were and more. Out of stunned surprise and pure taken-abackedness, I didn’t kill her right then.

Another thing to understand about my sister: she needs to be constantly entertained, every day is the worst day that she’s ever had, she’s a raging hypochondriac with “migranes” and “asthma” and every guy she’s ever met “hits on her” or “checks her out”.

Of course, sweet justice was had when my now-jobless brother moved in with her when she did get a place. She was complaining (of course) about it just a couple of weeks ago.
“He just sits around playing video games all day and eating my food. He doesn’t even get up until noon or after, and stays up all night! He never helps out around the house and he’s broke, so I can’t ask for any money, but he isn’t even trying to get a job!”
I said “I know the feeling,” :dubious:
She did not seem to catch my meaning. Color me surprised.

Oh, I don’t know - there has often been a bit of a history of family feuds! :slight_smile:

I don’t think you can concentrate too much on his grotty taste in food - unless he is leaving the kids open to malnutrition. Or, and this might be the thing - he only really buys snack stuff and depends on you and Mrs Duffer for all the more proper and sensible stuff.

His housing situation. I didn’t much like the bit aobut him saying" there are only apartments jsut now - I must wait till October to get a house". HMMMMM! he is damn HOMELESS - why can he not take an apartment, even if a bit cramped, they can all fit in somehow, I’d think. Fussy sort of guy, methinks.

I would have said don’t let this guy chase you out of your own house to go to Nevada, but since you actually want to go to Nevada, that in itself is not so terrible. But the fact that the current plan loooks like him freeloading off his mother does seem very bad. But a move to Nevada shoudl be *e should be when you and family find it convenient, not when it is the only way out.

Is Mrs Duffer just as pisssed off about it all as you are? It’s HER brother - perhaps she ought to have had a word with hiim.

This is all a bit abrupt, but with my bad computer and ISP, sometimes I have to be, so I am sorry for any apparent rudeness.

btw - I have t wice had brother as cuckoo in the nest. NOt as bad as your situation, though, I think.

Wel, as I say, abrupt but I must hit submit before cconnection crashes.
Parting thought - the most infamous “clan” fued in Scottish history was founded on an apalling abuse of hospitality. IN that case, killing people, so perhaps bro in law driving you insane is not quite as bad, but…!!!

I feel your pain duffer - your situation sucks. Its been my experience though that people like your brother in law, who are well versed in the art of mooching, always seem to land on their feet. If you give him a date to be out of your house by he will find somewhere else to stay and someone elses couch on which to eat his jalapeno feta cheese chips . I know you want to do what you can for family but keep in my you have your own family (you and your wife) to take care of as well - good luck!

Thanks for the wonderful advice and occasional chuckle everyone. I’ve backed away from the ledge a little bit. :slight_smile:

Yup, wife is upset about this, too. But feels trapped the way I do. We talked for a bit this morning and decided it’s best to take the weekend to 1. cool off and 2. to figure out the best way to word it so there aren’t any harsh feelings.

Now if I can just peel him away from the married woman to actually do this. I’ll try to remember to offer any updates for those that care to know.

Thanks again. Without all of you to bitch to, I fear the buildup could have led to the pistol being used. :eek:

Well, duffer, my experience is that moochers either are used to being kicked away from the trough and don’t get offended, or will get offended at being asked not to mooch no matter what you say. Just be absolutely clear, and absolutely firm.

Maybe I’m wrong, but does anyone else get the feeling that his next address will be chez Married Woman?


duffer, are we related?

I swear that sound just like one of my brothers, freaky food and all. Said brother had off/on jobs for years. In addition he hooked up with a skank, - an honest to god crack whore. She got him hooked, and they stole everything that wasn’t nailed down. Finally he stole my mother’s prize possession -a ten carat total weight cocktail ring that he hocked the stones out of, and replaced with fake. After we caught him he went to rehab.

Anyway to make a long story short he came to stay with me. I laid down the ground rules immediately. I sat him down before he got comfy and unpacked and told him, “steal anything, you’re gone.” “Talk to the skank, you’re gone” “I get your paycheck stub every week, and if there are less than forty hours worked, you’re gone”.

Believe it or not six years later, he still has that job, and is still clean. He told me that he was going to skip work one morning, but he know I would kick him out, so he went in. It turned he was the only guy on the crew who came in every day, so he was only one the boss retained.

The moral of the story is, let your expectations be known. The worst that can happen is BiL that he gets mad, and moves out. The best that can happen is that he takes it to heart, and it makes your life much easier.

I suggest you have your wife talk to him, it is her brother after all, and that it not be confrontational. Basically I told my brother that I knew it was important for me to help get back on his feet, and that I didn’t mind letting him live there for free, but that I was not going to give up my life, because he screwed up his.

You have to talk to your BiL. Remember, you owe him nothing, the fact that you are letting him live there is a courtesy, and he can leave anytime, and you certainly shouldn’t feel guilty if does.

I don’t really see the problem here, unless all the children are eating is just cereal. Milk is so highly regulated that the differences in quality are really minimal. And so long as they’re eating a decent cereal like Cheerios instead of Captain Sugarbuzz’s Caffiene-o’s, it’s a perfectly acceptable thing.

My dad’s an amatuer bodybuilder, and he practically lives off of Cheerios.