You're pregnant, it's time to stop using drugs

The BBQ Pit
1

Dear Friend,

In your early twenties, you’re married and expecting a child. You can barely afford internet access, but you’re going to try to raise a baby - fine, that’s your choice, and best of luck to you. (I have my suspicions about how willing a partner your husband was in this, but let’s not get into that right now.)

You’ve been smoking pot and taking mushrooms and peyote for years now. Fine, that’s your choice, and I saw nothing wrong with it… until now. Look, you crazy hippie, you’re trying to grow a baby. Don’t you want it done right?

No, I don’t care how much you trust the friendly Indians you do it with. It’s cute how you call peyote “the medicine” and all, but just because it comes from a plant and has been used for generations doesn’t make it safe.

No, I don’t have to have done it myself to be able to give you advice. I “understand” it perfectly - it’s a recreational drug and you’re putting it into your body and the fetus’s body. Whether it has opened your mind and made your stronger doesn’t change that fact. Yes, you heard me, it’s a drug. And by the way, it does contain mescaline; they aren’t two separate things.

I don’t care how many people you know who took “the medicine” during conception, gestation, and fed it to their kids once they were born. They’re fucking idiots, and if you go along with them, so are you. Finally, if your child does turn out to be “strong and special” (whatever the hell that means) despite your irresponsible behavior, it won’t make any faith grow in me… it’ll just prove that you were lucky.

Go ahead, tell me whatever evidence I might show you doesn’t matter, because your mind is already set. Your willful ignorance is only going to come back and bite you, just like that dog you’re having put down because it might harm baby - if you weren’t so opposed to all things modern and rational, you’d have your ignorance put down too, because it’s just as harmful.

Regards,
Mr2001

2

While I certainly agree with you that certain lifestyle changes are indicated in preparation for raising a child, there isn’t any evidence to suggest that normal peyote use is harmful to fetal development. In animal tests, it has been shown to cause birth defects at extremely high doses – much, much higher than anyone would ever think to use recreationally. But there’s no indication that it poses a problem at usual doses.

Huichol women have used peyote ceremonially during pregnancy as a matter of course for longer than anyone remembers, and there have been no problems.

Rationally, there’s no reason to be concerned about responsible peyote use during pregnancy. Your fears for the health of the fetus are as exactly as rational as someone who insists that other people never put a hat on a bed, because it could bring bad luck.

That said, if her peyote use is a problem in and of itself, (ie; it’s all she does, she neglects to care for herself properly, she gets out of control and puts herself in harm’s way, etc.) then she should smarten up. If she’s putting herself in legal jeopardy by her actions, she should smarten up. If it’s getting in the way of her ability to maintain proper social relationships or secure an income, she should smarten up.

Otherwise, there’s no cause for criticism – she’s not endangering her child in the way that someone who smokes and boozes through a pregnancy is.

For some people, it seems intuitive that something that has as profound an effect on consciousness as substances like mescaline or LSD do must be terribly dangerous. It’s subjectively so much stronger than alcohol, and we all know how dangerous alcohol is during pregnancy – so a hallucinogen must be that much more dangerous. Nope.

3

If there were evidence that putting unusually large hats on beds could bring bad luck, someone who insisted that smaller hats shouldn’t be put on beds during a time when luck is very important would merely be playing it safe.

4

That doesn’t follow at all. There’s evidence that eating a fistful of iron supplements can create serious problems for a child. That doesn’t mean that a mother who takes care to exclude beets and other iron-rich foods from their child’s diet is making them safer.

There’s nothing on the planet that won’t hurt you if you’re exposed to enough of it.

Unreasonably large amounts of vitamin A in the diet have been linked with an increase in birth defects. That doesn’t mean that ingesting it in the usual amounts presents a risk to expectant mothers.

The fact is that the best evidence we have suggests that it’s quite safe to consume peyote in the usual amount during pregnancy.

I think it’s a bit ironic that you’d write “Go ahead, tell me whatever evidence I might show you doesn’t matter, because your mind is already set.”

Your mind seems quite set. Based on what evidence?

You can look to the Huichol people as a good example of a society in which peyote use during pregnancy is normalized. There are no attendant complications, even in female shamans who regularly use much higher doses than most people do throughout their pregnancy.

Keep in mind that the “very high” doses which engendered birth defects in animal testing were far, far beyond what relates to what would even be possible for a human to ingest through eating peyote buttons, no matter how determined they were – not a “very high” dose on the scale of recreational or ceremonial use.

5

Hmm. Do we know anything about the … . . psychological effect of hallucinogens on fetuses? I’m not sure if that’s the right word: I mean, granting that peyote/whatever does not cause birth defects, does the fetus “trip”? Do the psychoactive substances pass to the fetus? I’d sure as hell hate it if I was dosed with no choice. It might be ‘safe’, medically, but it is emotionally/ psychologically cruel?

6

No, not really. What I’ve read has led me to believe that mescaline use during pregnancy poses a potential risk, and that there’s no general agreement that it’s safe. Maybe it’s not always dangerous, maybe it’s never dangerous when used below a certain dose - I haven’t seen any evidence either way that’s quite so specific. I will not be convinced, however, by vague claims about societies halfway across the continent who don’t base their decisions on rational testing.

Hell, if this friend of mine had based her decision on a careful weighing of the available evidence, I’d say her interpretation outweighs mine and leave it at that. It’d probably be the first time in her life that she had done such a thing, though.

All right, let’s see a study.

OK, let’s see a study comparing “very high” use to normal use.

7

Clinical studies are not forthcoming, but ethnological studies abound. It’s not online, but the Dr. Stacy Schaeffer’s Huichol Women, Pregnancy and Peyote describes a culture in which women typically take peyote several times during their pregnancies, as a sort of “rite of passage” thing to bond with their developing babies, as well as at the end of it to induce and ease labour. There isn’t any observable effect as far as birth defects are concerned.

The main study that is cited when talking about a possible risk of birth defects associated with mescaline use is this one.

500mg is considered a very heavy dose for mescaline, so for a person of average weight that’s about 8mg/kg.

The usual dose is about 200mg, so somewhere around 3mg/kg.

The study is looking at hamsters in the very early stages of pregnancy, dosed with amounts that equate to amounts well in excess of what the most daring person is likely to ingest on purpose – 16mg/kg - 32mg/kg. Between five and ten-and-a-half times the usual amount.

To put this in perspective, as far as clinical testing is concerned, the antidepressant Zoloft is in just about the same position: Animal testing at double to ten times the regular dose creates the same problem. You’ll still find doctors recommending that patients stay on it through pregnancy to minimize the risk of PPD.

Now, I don’t mean to make an equivalence between a psychiatric medication and something that someone does recreationally.

We’re not going to see a clinical study of what effect typical peyote use has on developing fetuses any time soon, because ingesting psychedelic substances is a cultural taboo. If it were significantly deleterious, though, you’d think that there’d be some evidence for it in a culture where it’s considered perfectly normal for women to ingest peyote as part of their pregnancy.

I think you’re letting enculturation colour your perception of how risky her behaviour is.

It’s kind of like an observant jew flipping out on someone for not keeping kosher because animal testing suggests that people who eat between five and ten cheeseburgers a day have noticibly shortened life-spans. ← I kid.

Even drugs that no one would argue are harmful when used in excess during pregnancy (like alcohol) are usually presented as an exaggerated risk. There are probably few among us who would not scowl at an obviously pregnant woman “irresponsibly” drinking a beer. Gasp! She’s risking FAS! Shock! Horror! Still, a woman who drinks a single glass of beer or wine every day right up until the day she delivers is at absolutely no increased risk. So it’s a good idea to reserve our dirty looks for expectant moms who are on their way to actually getting drunk.

We understandably have a reverential and protective attitude for developing life, but in utero folk are hardier than we give them credit for, a lot of the time. It borders on superstition.

8

When I read the OP, I wa sure someone would’ve come and posted that you should alert the authorities about her use during pregnancy. Well, no one else did, so I am. If you are concerned about the risk to the baby, report her, please.

9

call this number: 1-800-4-a-child. Tell them what you told us. She won’t be taking many drugs after that.

10

I’ve been to several peyote meetings (my dad married a mummified harpy, I mean, an aging hippy who is a member of the NAC). I was encouraged to consume a LOT of peyote. A lot more than I’d take if I just wanted a buzz at home. Taking enough to the point of vomiting is neither unusual nor unexpected (that’s how the “medicine” works, according to people I talked to.) To me, taking a few token bits (IME, in the form of a small tablet made from peyote dough) and praying is different than taking a handful of powdered peyote and knocking it back with several swigs from the communal peyote tea.

Just a FWIW anecdote.

11

Oh, and questions I directed to Road Men regarding use during pregnancy never did get a straight answer.

Navajo country, FWIW. More native/traditional tribes (WRT peyote usage, I mean) may have different guidlines for usage than they do.

12

Larry, I understand what you’re trying to say, and would also like to agree that we as a society tend to freak out unreasonably regarding ritualized drug use. However, the OP states that his friend is using peyote with THC AND mushrooms. This does not sound like the kind of person who uses, as you stated, peyote “several times during their pregnanc(y).” This sounds like someone who uses chronically and possibly abusively, and as such may be harming their fetus.

If we exclude the peyote use and just focus on the THC and mushrooms- are we still so sure that there are no harmful side effects? I had a friend who used THC to decrease symptoms of morning sickness during pregnancy, and don’t have room here to detail the issues her daughter has- maybe as a result of the gestational drug use, maybe due to other factors, but there’s no going back in time to see if cutting out (or back on) the drug use would make a difference. Unscrupulous people cut THC with all sorts of chemicals and potentially harmful materials (Mr. Kitty had a horrible experience with THC laced with PCP that turned him off THC for good) that certainly can’t be good for a developing fetus.

Mr2001, I think you should have a long conversation with your friend, and if you still have concerns- i.e., she is using more than recreationally, she isn’t getting the drugs from a reputable source, she isn’t willing to discuss the potential side effects of her drug use with her doctor (because this could have a HUGE impact on the drugs they’re able to use during delivery), her husband doesn’t know she’s using- then yes, you should drop a dime to CPS. If the hospital suspects drug use at birth, they’re going to call anyway- why not give the tyke a chance beforehand.

13

As for letting her doctor know, and avoiding letting the hospital find out at the delivery… I’ll try to ask her about it, but I expect her answer will be that she plans to have the birth at home and she’s not seeing a doctor (at least in the sense of someone who’s been to medical school).

I would hate to call CPS on her, because any investigation of her home is likely to raise a whole other set of legal issues. I don’t want to see my friend go to prison over something that, it may turn out, is just a harmless tradition of nuttery.

14

Let’s not confuse a perfectly good pitting with the facts, Larry. :wink:

15

Oh for goodness sakes. You and Good Egg are exactly the type of people Larry Mudd is talking about. Did either of you bother to read his informative posts or did you stop at the very first sighting of the word “drug,” stop reading (after all, who needs to bother with knowledge of the facts or logic, there are DRUGS involved here!!) and advocate getting authorities involved and tearing this family apart before it’s even been fully formed?

It’s this type of reactionary hysteria that’s slowly forming this nanny state we’ll eventually find ourselves living in.

16

I expected to come into the post and read about someone on crystal meth or crack.

The substances cited in the OP are not physiologically dangerous. Larry Mudd’s right.

17

I have to second this. While it is unlikely to the extreme that CPS or the police would even respond to a report of occasional non-hardcore drug use (they’e got enough to worry about with crack babies, sexual abuse, and multiple jail terms), I find it appalling that somebody would suggest this. The foster care system is probably the worst system in the world:

That is what happens when a child lives a life without love, which is sadly often in these cases with foster. Only the most clear and severe abuse is worse than growing up among people that don’t love you, with no family, no birthday parties, no knowing where you’ll live next year, just waiting until the day your turn 18 and can be kicked on to the streets. Is that really preferable to living with a couple of hippies who have some eccentric ideas about childbirth but probably plenty about love? Especially considering that these eccentric beliefs are widely practiced and well documented to be beneign?

18

As someone has already pointed out - dope is psychologically dangerous if you are addicted to it. Yes I know many on here would argue otherwise, but I’ve lived with someone addicted to dope and my brother in law used to be. It stops them from good decision making and increases depression in some cases. When they are high, can become the only time they are happy or confident etc - there are many far reaching associated problems with this.
Don’t really know what’s going on with this woman, but sounds like she could be at addiction level use. I wouldn’t imagine this would make her a reliable or safe mother.
Interestingly enough, my brother in law developed epilepsy from overuse of dope mixed with alcohol - and that is certainly physiologically dangerous. And high people often do stupid things such as leave things cooking on the stove etc - endangering others in the house.

19

My mistake. Its okay for mothers to dose their unborn babies with drugs, especially since what this one is using is legal. Forget I said anything. Her desires matter, not her childs.

20

When I did OB, I considered it an extremely successful gestation, drug-wise, if the mom had stopped drinking alcohol, stayed away from tobacco, and avoided stimulants like cocaine and methamphetamine. Stopping marijuana was a plus too, but I was concerned more about the effects of smoking the substance far more than the mood-altering effects.

While opiates can result in an addicted baby, infant opiate withdrawal can be managed. But the other substances of abuse that I mentioned above are the ones which can cause persistant, uncorrectable damage. And I considered pot smoking to be far less risky than cigarette smoking, vis-a-vis fetal health.

In pregnancy, fewer drugs are better, and none is best. But one must concentrate on the highest risk drugs: Tobacco, alcohol, and stimulants. And street drugs in general should be avoided of course, because noone’s ever sure just what’s in them.

(Many prescription pharmaceuticals pose risks too, but that’s a separate issue in my mind)