To tell you the truth, I don’t know any Roma here in the US. My experience is more in Eastern Europe, where, while intermixing, still tended to be separate from the rest of the local population in physical appearance.
I think that’d be a great follow-up to this:
Sure, and Roma in Eastern Europe (well, honestly, all of Europe) still have a lot of racial discrimination and challenges. But the U.S. - they are a rather insignificant blip on the multicultural radar.
(My great grandparents chose to leave their Roma heritage behind during immigration due to the discrimination they faced in Eastern Europe. Here, they were Americans.)
Shucks. Looks like I missed most of the excitement.
Yes, that’s right. I’m the infamous SDMB handshake rapist. I think I’ve gotten two Doper women so far. I’d have to check the other thread.
To say the least. I lived in Hungary for over five years and the overt discrimination and bigotry against the Roma, even by the supposed “enlightened” and “intellectual” sort was nothing short of shocking.
I’ve written quite a bit here about my experiences living in an area in Bulgaria with a large Roma population. The Roma are an ethnic group descended from migrants from South Asia and generally closely resemble people from the Indian subcontinent. I’m at work, but later I can post some pictures. The rest of the population where I lived was ethnically Bulgarian and Turkish, who were physically indistinguishable from each other.
All of that said, it is true that in the US, being Roma isn’t a big deal, because there aren’t very many around. I’ve told people in the US about my experiences and been greeted with a confused “what’s a Roma?”. Apparently they thought that “gypsies” were imaginary, or something. I don’t know.
Also, someone who does look Roma in the US would probably be mistaken for someone of Indian descent - a group that is generally seen as a “model minority”: well-educated and law-abiding.
In Europe, it would be a wildly different story. I have never seen such extreme prejudice and bigotry in my life as I have toward the Roma in Europe. It is disgusting.
I spent some time in Eastern Europe and was also surprised and horrified by how the Roma are treated there and how even respectable, well-educated people talk about the Roma as if they are practically animals. I have to admit that before going there I didn’t really know what Roma were - I thought ‘gypsy’ was roughly equivalent to ‘nomad’ and just referred to people who lived a sort of wandering lifestyle complete with fortune telling and music and dancing bears and whatnot. Yeah - not so much.
Anyways, as I tried to explain to **ZPG **in the other thread, I have no issue with the Roma or their culture. I would hazard a guess that most North Americans don’t since most don’t even know who they are. I do have an issue with someone - *anyone *- trying to use their race or religion as a blunt force weapon against anyone they see as oppressing them, especially because such people tend to see oppression in every interaction they have.
It’s not like I don’t believe in racism - it clearly exists and should be fought in any form. But just crying ‘racism!’ whenever something unpleasant happens to you is a stupid, pointless way to live your life. Particularly when that something is as mundane as ‘he tried to shake my hand!’ or ‘OMG teenagers having sex!’.
ETA: Just to be clear, only that first bit was in reply to your point, Kyla. The rest is just general ranting.
I know what you meant, just pointing out that technically, Roma are of Indian descent. (Long way back, of course.)
Only if those people happen to be descendants of those who, at one point, did not consider the Irish “white”.
I’m currently living in a city with one of the biggest Roma populations in Spain; anybody here who said that Roma aren’t white would be getting an answer along the lines of “you really ought’a get those cataracts taken out, man.”
Heh here is my Romanian buddy Jin[not his real name, but his common nickname]
And here are some genericRomanian Romas, I am sorry I have no idea who’s flickr it is I got it googling Romanian Roma and hitting up the images.
To me they look pretty much the same coloring wise, dark hair, somewhat olive skin, similar features. I attribute it more to the Romans settling the area back in the early part of the Roman Imperial Expansionist period.
Frankly, I think most Americans seeing random Roma consider them either Hispanic or Sicilian/southern Italian. I doubt that very many people realize who are Roma and who are not, generally many Roma are trying to blend in and not stand out.
nm
Well, your region is different, then. Here’s a Facebook discussion of Romani users discussing self-identification and how they are perceived by the people where they live or have traveled to. Characterizing Romas as “non-white” is not unusual.
I’m not going to join Facebook, thanks. Are those Romani writers in the US? Because if so, they are in the country where the Irish were not considered white. I’m quite sure that your average ethnic Irish(wo)man would be considered glow-in-the-dark by Spanish standards.
Who asked you to join Facebook? Just click on the link.
Most of the posters to that page do seem American, but there’s also this:
Also, the context of what I’m saying is not that your Spanish community considers Roma “white.” That’s fine. Perhaps I overstated when I said “I don’t think most people who live in communities with a significant Roma population consider them ‘white.’” That’s a bias of my own experience, where Roma were definitely treated and considered non-white.
What I was trying to address was the confusion by some posters of Roma being described as “non-white.” I am saying this is not an unusual distinction, and ZPG making a distinction between a white girl and her Roma nephew is not odd. Looking at the Facebook links, you can see that some Roma identify as non-white.
That’s all I’m saying.
Historical views of race are pretty irrelevant here. I think you would be hard-pressed to find someone in the U.S. today who wouldn’t classify the Irish as “white.” Irish discrimination was mainly active in the 19th century, perhaps into the early 20th. I’m a mix of a bunch of European ancestors: German (dark), Czech, Swiss (German-speaking), Irish, French, and Dutch; and I don’t think there’s any American, me included, who wouldn’t say I’m white.
However, I do concur that American views on race are not really “Caucasian = white.” The American view of “white” is pretty synonymous with “European”: a Caucasian from northern Africa, India or Pakistan, any Middle Eastern country, etc. would almost certainly not be termed “white” by most Americans. Nor would someone who’s Hispanic or a Pacific Islander. (One of my best friends is half-Pakistani: she was wryly amused when she had to fill out a questionnaire for some sort of bullshit sensitivity training at work and had no option but to classify herself as Caucasian, which then lumped her in for some activities that were designed for white people.)
She’s finally confessed she lives on the Texas Gulf Coast & has said her nephew is usually assumed to be “Mexican.”
Still, unless she’s living in one of the few remaining all-white inbred-haunted hamlets of Deep East Texas (like Vidor), the “authorities” are likely to be pretty diverse. Even among those tending to be prejudiced, the Roma are not one of the hated groups.
I find the persona she’s constructed here to be full of inconsistencies. Is she really a zealous ZPG advocate who has been divorced & aborted the issue of that marriage? Or is she a middle-aged lady married to a traditional Roma gentleman?
I don’t think her actual ethnicity or living situation has anything to do with it.
I’m perfectly willing to accept that the Roma may not see themselves as white and that they want to preserve their own traditions, esp. in regards to family, child rearing, etc. I could even accept her not wanting her nephew to date outside their ethnic group, kind of like the “STick to your own kind, Maria” from West Side Story. (Not like it, but understand because I know it happens. I have a great aunt that some members of the extended family won’t even talk to, because she married an Italian and Polish families didn’t do that 70 years ago)
But the way she keeps presenting her wacky-ass ideas as gospel, refusing to even accept that others don’t see it that way and hiding behind the “my ethnic group and upbringing blah blah blah” when cornered…
Either the woman’s pottier than an archeology dig or trolling.
Just to lightly touch on the “handshake rape”, our Rapist-in-Chief.
OMG, here’s one that includes his whore of a wife, too!
And here’s how his administration conducts foreign policy. Whoring out the Secretary of State to the Japanese!
I think my favorite thing about her is the way she simultaneously castigates everyone in the U.S. for not respecting her (incredibly tiny minority, backwards, sexist) culture, while simultaneously disrespecting our (huge majority, progressive, egalitarian) culture.