spectrum, I’ve read your posts in these kinds of threads often enough that I think I have a decent handle on where you’re coming from. And you know what? I think, in the process of railing against the various groups you say are out to destroy you (really, almost everybody who isn’t ready to kill for the cause of gay rights), you’ve come to hate those who hate you even more than they’re supposed to hate you. Outraged and indignant, you demonize your opponents while accusing them of demonizing you.
Really, are you actively seeking to create enemies? As much as you appear to think that you’re fighting the anti-gay “coalition,” I think that you’re hurting your cause even more. In the linked thread, I do believe you’ve accused a gay man of being a homophobe. When you’re making enemies of your “teammates,” what sort of a game is it that you’re going to win?
Here’s why I even bother to say anything about this. I’m not gay. That said, I like to think I’m about as supportive of gay rights as anyone could reasonably be. Nearly every time I’ve opened a thread debating some issue concerning gay rights, though, I find myself repulsed by your behavior. If I was even a little bit on the fence, I promise you, I’d come out of that thread a little less supportive of your cause than I entered. I’m sure you don’t care. I’m willing to bet, though, that your putative allies in the gay community don’t appreciate your constant sneering attacks on anybody who espouses anything less than 100% support of your agenda. I mean, are you interested in actual healing, or do you just like to bitch?
Well, I’ve only read Spectrum’s contributions in one thread in GD, so I don’t have the same material to work with. But (and I know this doesn’t contradict what you say, Jimmy) he (is it he?) is bright and eloquent. Sorry to sound so patronising.
I’m not homosexual either and I do have prejudice against homosexuals (both at the icky level and in other ways). If for example, my daughter became (or perhaps declared herself to be a lesbian is a more accurate way of putting it if I want to be PC) a lesbian, I would be devastated.
Of course, as a Christian (I’m one) some might say that that prejudice isn’t prejudice but a kind of right judgement. But I’m not primarily referring to the Biblical position and teh difficulties (yes, difficulties) which that puts thinking people in. I’m referring to what everyone understands by prejudice. The sort of thing you see against people who aren’t attractive or wealthy, people who aren’t “players”, in office life every day.
Sorry to ramble on so. What I’m trying to say is that Spectrum can say what he wants as far as I’m concerned. But like all of us that might mean that when he is able to be truly honest his own fears and so on will be able to be expressed. And then perhaps he won’t get on other people’s nerves so much.
But that requires an empathetic environment, or unflinching courage. Must say the environment on SDMB is better than most.
Well, I can certainly say I don’t hate spectrum. I am perplexed by him, though.
He hates me well enough, because I don’t agree with him right down the line. And disagreement with spectrum automatically equalls bigotry in his mind. There’s no room for honest discussion of views.
And disagreement with spectrum automatically equalls bigotry in his mind.
Yep.
And I agree, the general gay population probably would think he’s nuts too. I’ve never personally known anyone gay with such a persecution complex or so quick to label you if you don’t agree with every single word they say.
Oh, I have. And right on here at that. Do a search on Kirkland sometime. And while Hastur/Mockingbird had long periods of lucidity, he’d occasionally go off the deep end on this subject as well. There’s no such thing as the excuse of ignorance in their world. If you’re not a gay-booster from birth, you’re a bigot.
Oh, bullshit. There are a billion and a half topics on which I don’t give a fuck if people disagree with me or not. But the issue of reparative torture is beyond the pale. No decent person can support this practice, no one with a soul can stand by it, and if standing up against what, if accepted widely, would be a campaign to effectively obliterate homosexuals makes me evil, then so be it. I’d rather be an asshole and right than lower myself to the point where I can see eye to eye with the kind of person who supports the reparative abuse industry.
And as for gay marriage: other than bigot, what could you possibly call someone so un-American that they stand against equality for all?
bodswood, you seem to be be a good sort. Let me ask your opinion on the biblical story in John, Chap. 8, verses 1 through 11. “He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.”
Doesn’t that have some application here? If homosexuality makes homosexuals unhappy, then let them seek counseling or medical attention. If it doesn’t make them unhappy, let them live their lives as best they can, without the rest of us making their lives more difficult…and let God judge them. Are we so perfectly attuned to right and God’s will that we can judge them, thus attempting to usurp God’s place?
If my arguing from the Bible doesn’t suit you, allow me to quote M. K. Gandhi:
“Yes, we should fight injustice. But do we fight to punish or to change things? I’ve always felt that we are all such sinners that we should leave punishment to God.”
In what way does opposing gay marriage work to change the situation for the better? Will it make gays see the ‘error of their ways?’ No. Will it keep them from working to achieve equal rights? No. Will it do anything substantial to protect a member of your own family from, some day, actually realizing that he or she is gay? No. Will it devalue your home? Increase your taxes? No.
The one thing that opposing gay marriage will do is make individuals like Spectrum feel so isolated and frustrated that he loses his sense of balance and fights back to punish in response to those attempting to punish him.
bodswood, in the light of my single post in that other thread, I ask you to ponder this: In what way is opposing gay marriage making your life less unhappy? A good Christian should be able to take out his soul and look it.
Well, I’m not sure what exactly you’re calling bullshit, spectrum, but since the OP was mine I’m going to assume it was something I said. Where did I say anything about seeing eye to eye? All I’m saying is that bare ass to eye isn’t doing your side much good. Don’t you care?
Your ability to fly right off the deep end with such amazing consistency completely astounds me. I mean, let’s look at what you’ve said in response-
A reasonable argument, except for this- who called you evil? Is this the first step towards labelling me a bigot, as well, or are you simply in love with the idea of being hated- so much so that you project hatred onto yourself from sources from which hatred is not actually being directed?
Listen to me: if you truly want to make headway in this thing, you’re going to want to attract people to your side. I’m easy- I’m not going to be swayed into a less progressive stance on account of your pompousity, because I know you’re not representative of the gay community as a whole. Not everybody is as adamantly on your side. There may be some who have simply never been exposed to a homosexual’s point of view, and upon whom a first impression could have great impact. If and when such an individual stumbles upon your shoot first, shoot later approach to differing viewpoints, they will be turned off. Every time that happens, true equality will be that much further away, and it will be your fault.
True equality, as you call it, will not be achieved on this message board. This message board isnt even representative of the American populace.
Generally speaking, I don’t discuss these topics in my offline life, aside from amongst my gay friends, who of course agree with me. And my friends, from time to time. But then, anyone who wouldn’t support my right to marry, anyone who wouldn’t oppose the reparative torture industry, they were excised from my circle of friends and family years ago. So as much as people on this board may hate me, I can’t imagine that I’m a very influential person, pro or con, on this or any other issue.
I appreciate your concern, but I don’t see what you would have me do. Treat those who want me destroyed, who support the reparative abuse industry, as if they deserve courtesy and respect? When hell freezes over. They are no better than the Klan, no better than [insert Godwin here], and they will be treated as such.
You know, I coulda sworn there was something in that holy book of y’alls that discussed whether or not people should judge each other, but gosh darned if I’ve forgotten it. I wonder why, given the actions of some (including prominent figures) in the name of God and Christ, that ever might be.
Well, I wouldn’t have you do anything for my benefit, of course. I’m simply suggesting that your definition of “them” tends to be a little bit overinclusive. Those who want you destroyed certainly aren’t worth paying much attention to. Those who are somewhere in between wanting you destroyed and wanting all those who want you destroyed destroyed themselves, though, won’t respond well to being lumped in with the first group.
I sincerely apologize if that’s how I came across, matt_mcl. I don’t think it’s reasonable to deny one’s basic rights based on sexuality. Then again, I don’t think it’s reasonable to deny one’s rights based on race, either, but that was a battle that needed to be fought, and fought the right way.
I wasn’t referring to a specific person in this thread, Jimmy.
I’m just saying that in general, it gets really fucking tiresome for my damn life to be GD fodder all the time – that I’m supposed to courteously accept my equality and worth being a subject of dispute.
As I say, I don’t think spectrum is going about it the right way if he wants to win the argument. But I do understand where he’s coming from. He says a lot of things I feel but don’t always care to express.
That’s what makes me more mad than anything. I’d like to see what all this worthless filth would think if it were their core humanity, their right to exist, their lives and their love that was being put up to A FUCKING VOTE. It’s degrading. It’s insulting. That the topic is up for so much as a shred of a debate is a direct and personal attack on my dignity and the dignity of every gay person in the world.
That there are people who think I should tolerate this intrusion on my very person makes me hate them ever more.
You know what, as much as I like to pretend I understand, I don’t. Bully for me, of course, not so much for you guys. But you’re right. You’re absolutely right. The more I think about it, the more I question whether I could even be as tactful as spectrum has been in this thread. For me, it’s a purely intellectual exercise; occasionally I’ll get angry at a Phelps, an uncouth friend, or my grandfather or something, but even then, it’s like a freelance emotional investment, to be picked up again whenever convenient. Likewise, my appreciation of what gays have invested in this kind of thread was an intellectual appreciation.
I sort of regret that I even started the thread, to be quite honest. I don’t blame you for what you say. I’ll still flinch a little bit, most likely, but then I’m detached from the situation, and I have the luxury to do so.
I’m a big-nosed blonde. [It’s no-one’s bussiness - and not interesting - whether I’m gay, or straight]
I guess what spectrum and matt_mcl are saying is:
Suppose big-nosed blondes want to get married - or have kids - or want a divorce - or want to visit a fucking church. How would I feel when people are debating about me?
“No, no. Big nosed blondes can’t marry. The bible said so, bla-bla-bla”
“Big nosed blondes are fine, as long as they keep away from me”
“I’m all for Big-nosed blondnes, but don’t complain if the rest of the world is treating you like shit”
It is the year 2004. Two-thousand *fucking *-four.
Isn’t it about time to accept and integrate homo-sexuals, fer crying out loud?
Toning the language down a little would be productive, and you could make your points more effectively. Easy for me to say when I’m not directly affected by the issue being discussed, but true.
Some of them are simply ignorant, which isn’t the same as true bigotry.
