Political Compass #45: Punishment should be more important than rehabilitation.

Many political debates here have included references to The Political Compass, which uses a set of 61 questions to assess one’s political orientation in terms of economic left/right and social libertarianism/authoritarianism (rather like the “Libertarian diamond” popular in the US).

And so, every so often I will begin a thread in which the premise for debate is one of the 61 questions. I will give which answer I chose and provide my justification and reasoning. Others are, of course, invited to do the same including those who wish to “question the question”, as it were.

It would also be useful when posting in these threads to give your own “compass reading” in your first post, by convention giving the Economic value first. My own is
SentientMeat: Economic: -5.12, Social: -7.28, and so by the above convention my co-ordinates are (-5.12, -7.28). Please also indicate which option you ticked. I might suggest what I think is the “weighting” given to the various answers in terms of calculating the final orientation, but seeing for yourself what kind of answers are given by those with a certain score might be more useful than second-guessing the test’s scoring system.

Now, I appreciate that there is often dissent regarding whether the assessment the test provides is valid, notably by US conservative posters, either because it is “left-biased” (??) or because some propositions are clearly slanted, ambiguous or self-contradictory. The site itself provides answers to these and other Frequently Asked Questions, and there is also a separate thread: Does The Political Compass give an accurate reading? [size=2]Read these first and then, if you have an objection to the test in general, please post it there. If your objection is solely to the proposition in hand, post here. If your objection is to other propositions, please wait until I open a thread on them. (And for heaven’s sake, please don’t quote this entire Opening Post when replying like this sufferer of bandwidth diarrhea.)

The above will be pasted in every new thread in order to introduce it properly, and I’ll try to let each one exhaust itself of useful input before starting the next. Without wanting to “hog the idea”, I would be grateful if others could refrain from starting similar threads. Finally, I advise you to read the full proposition below, not just the thread title (which is necessarily abbreviated), and request that you debate my entire OP rather than simply respond, “IMHO”-like, to the proposition itself.

To date, the threads are:

Does The Political Compass give an accurate reading?
Political Compass #1: Globalisation, Humanity and OmniCorp.
#2: My country, right or wrong
#3: Pride in one’s country is foolish.
#4: Superior racial qualities.
#5: My enemy’s enemy is my friend.
#6: Justifying illegal military action.
#7: “Info-tainment” is a worrying trend.
#8: Class division vs. international division. (+ SentientMeat’s economic worldview)
#9: Inflation vs. unemployment.
#10: Corporate respect of the environment.
#11: From each according to his ability, to each according to need.
#12: Sad reflections in branded drinking water.
#13: Land should not be bought and sold.
#14: Many personal fortunes contribute nothing to society.
#15: Protectionism is sometimes necessary in trade.
#16: Shareholder profit is a company’s only responsibility.
#17: The rich are too highly taxed.
#18: Better healthcare for those who can pay for it.
#19: Penalising businesses which mislead the public.
#20: The freer the market, the freer the people.
#21: Abortion should be illegal.
#22: All authority must be questioned.
#23: An eye for an eye.
#24: Taxpayers should not prop up theatres or museums.
#25: Schools shouldn’t make attendance compulsory.
#26: Different kinds of people should keep to their own.
#27: Good parents sometimes have to spank their children.
#28: It’s natural for children to keep secrets.
#29: Marijuana should be legalised.
#30: School’s prime function is equipping kids to find jobs.
#31: Seriously disabled people should not reproduce.
#32: Learning discipline is the most important thing.
#33: ‘Savage peoples’ vs. ‘different culture’
#34: Society should not support those who refuse to work.
#35: Keep cheerfully busy when troubled.
#36: First generation immigrants can never be fully integrated.
#37: What’s good for corporations is always good for everyone.
#38: No broadcasting institution should receive public funding.
#39: Our civil rights are being excessively curbed re. terrorism.
#40: One party states avoid delays to progress.
#41: Only wrongdoers need worry about official surveillance.
#42: The death penalty should be an option for serious crimes.
#43: Society must have people above to be obeyed.
#44: Abstract art that doesn’t represent anything isn’t art at all.
[/size]
**Proposition #45: In criminal justice, punishment should be more important than rehabilitation.

SentientMeat** (-5.12, -7.28) ticks Disagree.

First of all, the most important aspect is prevention of future crimes. Criminal justice achieves this primarily by providing an important input into the human decision process: If this action then that consequence. (There is of course another if implied therein - “if I’m caught” - but that is a matter of policing rather than of criminal justice.) But criminal justice also achieves prevention by both physically removing convicts from society, and by attempting to change their operant conditioning such that they do not seek to commit crimes in the first place. And so, what can be said to be more important: punishment, or rehabilitation (which I define here as “metamorphosis into one who will never commit another felony”)?

Let us first take it to extremes. What if none were punished but all were rehabilitated? This would appear to be an inadequate deterrent, even if nobody committed a second crime (everyone would just make their first pay off big time!). And what if all were punished but nobody was rehabilitated? Clearly, many crimes which might not have occurred would then be committed by those readmitted to society after their solely punitive incarceration.

I struggle to position myself on this particular see-saw, since both punishment and rehabilitation seem to be important mechanisms for preventing future crimes. Added to this is the complication that punishment can itself be rehabilitative to some extent (although one who broke the law in the first place must surely have been vaguely aware of the undesirability of the consequences - I’m don’t really think that the criminal justice system has the effect on many people of “scaring them straight”.) Thus, I genuinely could not say that punishment was more important.

I suspect that what this proposition is trying to get at is that if (somehow) rehabilitation “works” on a convict such that they do not reoffend, but are released early or given some other leniency, that they have “played the system” and been “let off” - that vengeance has not been assuaged. As I have said in other threads, I do not consider revenge to be an appropriate motivation for the actions of a civilised state government. Punishment so that justice is seen to be done, to deter and condition, is perfectly reasonable. Punishment for the sake of it is merely an outlet for the sadistic, animal urge to dominate another.

This is a proposition which, answered honestly, has me ticking Disagree only marginally. However, given the mindset I personally project onto to those who would tick Strongly Agree, I have no objection to placing myself on the other end of the see-saw. Perhaps I am mischaracterising that mindset as being fixated on vengeance - we shall see.

Ack! Not “retribution” int the thread title - rehabilitation.

I’ll ask a Mod to change it.

Economic: -4.12, Social: -2.62

Disagree, but with some reservations.

Rehabilitation of offenders should be the first goal of any penal system, i.e. to get offenders back as functioning members of society. Unfortunately this is not always possible and certain offenders need to be kept in prison forever to protect the public.

There is also the problem that prison can be seen as a training ground for criminals and can turn a small time offender into a more serious career criminal.

I agree, justice should be based on rehabilitation where possible and protecting the innocent where not. State vengeance should not be the basis of a justice system.

Priceguy (-8.50/-5.33) ticks Strongly Disagree. I see punishment in itself as completely meaningless; rehabilitation is all that matters. If someone is utterly incapable of rehabilitation, as Stryfe postulates, then they should obviously be stopped from re-entering society, but not as punishment - as protection for the innocent.

Do you not forget the importance of the trust the people put into a state sanctioned system of justice & punishment? If the people is to accept a nationalisation of the justice system (and anything else would be a disaster) it is absolutely essential that their view of what is just punishment, is, on the whole, fulfilled. The people hand over their own revenge to the state with the tacit assumption that the state takes it upon itself to exact such punishment as they, the people, deem appropriate. It’s a bargain. If the state does not fulfil its side of the bargain, there is no bargain, and the people are free to seek such punishment as they judge fitting. Thus the most important aspect is the peoples trust. Whether that is best secured by punishment or rehabilitation is a question I think is best settled with such things as direct elections of judges and jurors picked randomly from the whole adult population.

My personal thoughts are that some crimes (murder, rape, incest) should be dealt with much harsher than they are at present and screw rehabilitation, while others (drugs, tax evasion) should only be dealt with by rehabilitation.

Rune, that argument presupposes that revenge is the point of the justice system. I hold that it is not, or at least should not be.

Just because ‘the people’ want something does not mean it is right. I agree that it is an important practical consideration that vigilantism must be avoided, but we must also avoid fallacies.

No it merely presupposes that the people have the final say in what they consider just punishment. And the most, nay only!, important thing for the justice system, is to follow the people’s wish as can best be determined. Whether that be revenge, protection, rehabilitation, income or something else entirely. The state should not be in the business of making moral judgments on behalf of the people. The state has no moral authority. Sometimes the moral thing is to break the law.

I must say there is something about rehabilitation that churns my stomach in a really bad way. It stinks of re-education camps, brainwashing and assuming moral responsibility which cannot be thus assumed. Whether a man rapes a woman, smokes a joint or sabotage a Nazi extermination camp, he should be punished according to what the people deems appropriate, he should brainwashed to alter his mind or be lectured to or pressured to make other moral choices because the state has no authority to do so. Punishment without moralising and then a clean slate & a chance to start anew. That’s how I prefer it.

That’s the second time you’ve thrown John Stuart Mill my way. Even a JSM wherein Denmark is so highly praised. Who would have thought a -5.12’er would have thought so highly of him!

What is moral right is a wholly individual matter which cannot be collectivised & which has no final answer. There is always the danger that democracy should turn out to be a dictatorship of the majority, but the alternative, dictatorship of experts, is much the worse of the two. “Argumentum ad Numerum” is misplaced as there is no right and wrong verifiable answer. No amount of experts can tell me or you what is the justified punishment for a specific crime. I’m just saying that what I think personally about punishment and what I think the state should do are two different things.

Agree, only because rehabilitation is a joke.

We prevent future crimes by locking them away for long periods of time. Bad behavior is curtailed within prison by revoking privliges such as exercise, television, or tasty food. In short, we punish them. It might make you feel better to say to yourself “We’re primarily concerned with protecting society or rehabilitation not punishment.” Just don’t forget that the primary tool to achieve these goals is the hammer of punishment.

I certainly don’t believe people should be brutalized and I’m all in favor of programs to help those convicts who wish to improve their lives. Unfortunately I know of no rehabilitation program that has a high rate of effectiveness.
Marc

Strongly Agree.

As far as I am concernced, rehabilitation is entirely secondary. If they learn a skill, great. If they produce stuff while inside, great. But they are there for punishment.

I would say that the only important thing for the justice system is to minimize the number and severity of criminal acts committed. I also think it’s pretty clear that rehabilitation accomplishes that goal better than retribution does. That’s why I tick Strongly Disagree.

If the people don’t want rehabilitation they obviously have the power to vote somebody who wants retribution into the position of power, but what we’re discussing here is which is more important: punishment or rehabilitation, not democracy.

What’s the point of punishment?

To better learn to not get caught next time.

Agree.

Airman nailed it.

I think I said “agree”, but it’s really a false dichotomy. Punishment is an important part of rehabilitation.

But, if we assume that the criminal* is going to be released back into society, then rehabilitation has to be top priority, otherwise we’re just delaying future crime. At any rate, I really don’t think you can completely separate punishment and rehabilitation.

*I’m being a bit wide with my brush, as all those convicted of crimes aren’t “career” criminals.

Rehabiltation is the only thing that is important if they are ever getting out.

Do you want a petty thief released who a) Has learnt a skill and become employable and been given the opportunity to look at how and why he did what he did, so he can avoid doing it again or b) The angry, recently released ex-con who learnt how to be a better crim while inside?

Do you want the rapist that has been given the opportunity to find out why he is a rapist and who has been given help? Or the rapist who has been in
jail for 5 years and can’t wait for the first woman he sees?

If the crime is one that earns life in prison then surely the goal is making the person realise that what they did was wrong and that they get to the place where they can understand genuine remorse. Surely in that case punishment goes hand in hand with rehabilitation.

There are horrible people in the world (the baby taker!) but I can’t help think they are made not born. We, as a society, own them too.

:rolleyes:

This old yarn again. People aren’t responsible, it’s the fault of society. Or it’s not their fault, they have a psychological problem. Or any number of excuses.

If he’s a rapist and doesn’t know why it’s wrong he should never be released, because he’s either a liar (which is what I think) or he’s a psycho and is too dangerous to be released. Either way, problem solved.

I don’t see it that way at all. In fact, just the opposite. We who ARE responsible folk know there are criminals out there and that if they aren’t rehabilitated then WE are at risk. So, unless you want to lock up every criminal for life, you damn well better make sure you’re not just releasing them to commit more crime. It’s like looking both ways before you cross the street in a crosswalk. Yeah, cars are supposed to stop, but you’re a fool if you think they always will?

Well, how do you decide if he knows that it was wrong unless he’s rehabilitated? Lock 'em up until they learn by themselves might sound great, but it just isn’t practical. Why spend MORE money than you have to. It’s gotta be cheaper to put efforts into rehabilitation than to just lock 'em up for life.

You have to get over the idea that you’re doing these guys some sort of favor by rehabilitating them. I’m as much of a hard-ass as you probably are, but I’m also a selfish bastard and don’t want to spend more money on them than I have to.

Agree, with qualifications.

Number one priority is protecting society by separating it from those that pose a threat. That’s why we take the freedom away from felons.

Number two priority is to ensure that when the prisoner is released, he has a job skill to prevent him from being a repeat offender. If he isn’t getting out (life sentence), don’t waste time and money trying to rehab him. But if he is coming back to society, society will be better off statistically if the prisoners learn a trade while in the big house. Some of course will revert to crime and be back in the legal system, but some will stay clean. Better to salvage what you can than to throw it away.

I’ve never seen any evidence that it even works, leaving the question of practicality a second priority at best.

Airman, again: what is the point of punishment? What does punishment try to achieve?