I really don't know what to do at this point... (Heartbreak, very long)

[Agent Foxtrot]

It's funny that a thread titled "Your latest crush on a woman" showed up in MPSIMS today, as I've been gone from the boards for several months. Something happened to me this past weekend that I think bears having its own thread. I'd appreciate everyone's thoughts and advice.

Late last month, I was working one of my final shifts as a math tutor at my community college. I had worked there for about 2 1/2 years, and was leaving to start a new job at a hospital in Baltimore.

This gorgeous woman walked in (I'll call her "Stacy") and asked for help studying for a math placement test. I sat down and started to work with her. She was bubbly, funny, exuded a ton of positive energy, and smelled great to boot. I don't offer tutoring services for free outside of school, but I gave her my number and offered to do just that.

I didn't expect her to call, but Friday rolls around and she texts me telling me she'll be at school on Monday. I reply that I'll be working from 9-12. I didn't expect her to show up that Monday, either, but she did.

After working with her some more, I had to leave for the local public library to tutor another student. I accidentally locked my keys in the car, so I called the math lab to see if anyone could help me pop a lock. Apparently, she was still in there, because she sent me the text, "Do you need me to come rescue you?" I replied yes and she said she was going to take her test and then come help me.

I'll shorten the story here just a bit to say that right as she was about to come up, I got my lock popped. I headed home and asked her about her test. When she answered, she was in tears. She didn't get into the class she needed. I asked if she was still and campus, and she said yes, so I told her I could come see her. We tried talking to the department chair (she wasn't in) and then we tried to figure out what we could on the computer. Nothing was helpful at that point so I offered to take her out for food and make her feel better.

We go to a pizza and have a great time. She mentions her boyfriend, which disappointed me, but I didn't let it get to me too much. We finish lunch and she drops me off back at campus.

For the past few weeks, we talked and saw each other more than she saw her own boyfriend. She complained about him being emotionally unavailable and that all he ever does is play poker in Vegas and with his friends (he's an executive). She said that he's "safe". Nevertheless, we talked all the time and flirted a lot.

Fast forward to last week. Stacy and I hang out at the mall and have a great time. At this point, we've shared a lot of deeply personal things and have gotten to be very fond of each other. At the end of the night, we hug. The mother of all hugs. A hug so great I needed a cigarette afterward. I go home and she texts me, telling me that she had to try her hardest to keep from kissing me.

Before I continue, let me just say that I was very interested in this woman, but kept myself at just the right distance because of her boyfriend. I had my intentions, but they weren't much of a secret at this point.

The next night, she wants to hang out again. I suggest a movie at her place. Most of the movie is over, but I ask to pause so I can smoke a cigarette. She said yes, but she wants to kiss me first. So she does. I'll get pretty private here, but we spent pretty much the entire weekend at her place in one giant two-day-long makeout session. We stopped just short of sex because she still was in a relationship, but we both agreed we wanted it and would wait. Nevertheless, we felt a passion and closeness for each other that I myself had felt only once before in my life.

So last Saturday night, we go back to my place so I can take care of my cats. She calls her boyfriend and has a pretty difficult conversation with him. He knows what's up and now is calling and texting constantly in an effort to keep her (funny, he didn't seem to care much when I wasn't a factor). She had planned to stay the night at my place but instead asked if I could take her home so she could have some time alone to think. It's about midnight Sunday at this point, and I'm exhausted, but agree. Halfway down, we swap so she can drive because I'm falling asleep. I ask to spend the night because I won't make it home if I try to drive. In spite of her dilemma, we're still very physical.

We wake up and watch her favorite Sunday morning show together. We cuddle, talk a bit more, and tells me she's undecided, but today will probably be the day she visits her boyfriend to break it off. I leave and let her have her space for the day until she finally calls me at 11:30pm.

She's decided to try to work things out with her boyfriend for a while, and that he's forbidding her to see or talk to me immediately. Without getting into the nitty-gritty of the conversation, I'll tell you that I asked her who she as more feelings for. Without hesitation she said me, but she's starting school again and she just needs safety and security right now. I ask her to promise me two things: One, that she won't let this situation affect her schoolwork, and two that she'll try her best to see me, even if it's in a public place with no physical contact. I've such strong feelings for Stacy that I simply can't just let her walk out of my life like that. She told me that she was >this< close to deleting her boyfriend from her phone and showing up to my workplace at 5pm today to surprise me.

She's going out with her boyfriend and family tonight, so she's going to talk to me on Tuesday. Dopers, I'm devastated. This is the second woman in my life that I've completely and hopelessly fallen for. She's laughed with me and cried in my arms. She's shared secrets her own boyfriend doesn't know. I've dated many women, but none have ever clicked like this one. I'm at work now and am having a very difficult time focusing on my job. I miss her.

There's a lot more to the story, but no one here wants to read a novel. There's a chance she'll come back. She's surprised me before. But right now I'm just torn apart.

[pseudotriton ruber ruber]

Be cool. You've made yourself clear, and you only get more attractive the less pressure you put on her at this point.

A few more weeks, certainly another month or two, it may be time for you push her for a committment, but for now, step back. Just let her know you're there, then be there. ButDON'TBERIGHTHEREINHERFACEJUSTNOW!!!

My guess is he does something to piss her off in the next week or two, and her mental image of you will never be less attractive than you happen to be in person. Couldn't be, really.

[Agent Foxtrot]

Originally Posted by pseudotriton ruber ruber

Be cool. You've made yourself clear, and you only get more attractive the less pressure you put on her at this point.

A few more weeks, certainly another month or two, it may be time for you push her for a committment, but for now, step back. Just let her know you're there, then be there. ButDON'TBERIGHTHEREINHERFACEJUSTNOW!!!

My guess is he does something to piss her off in the next week or two, and her mental image of you will never be less attractive than you happen to be in person. Couldn't be, really.

Thanks for responding, PRR. I can step back and be cool, but the thing that bothers me is that she was with her boyfriend for a year and a half before she met me and still stuck with him in spite of his failings. She broke up with him in April for about 6 weeks, but they got back together.

She put up with him for a year and a half, and now expects him to change in the next few weeks. She knows that this is true, and she mentioned it to him, but he changed the subject. I couldn't wrap my head around why she stayed with him, and even after she explained it to me, I still don't get it.

Let me add too that she was not looking for someone new when I met her, but the chemistry we have was enough to force her to question her current relationship.

[ZipperJJ]

What is this "security" she's holding on to with her boyfriend? Is he paying for her school or something? That sounds like a weird reason for an adult to stick around with someone they don't particularly like.

I agree with prr tho...stay cool. You're going to have to suffer in silence - or at least out of her earshot. And don't play kiddie games like sending secret messages or meeting up for snuggles while dude is out of town. That will just make things worse for you if it doesn't work out.

[Lionne]

Exactly what PRR said. Let her know you're there for her, but create some space. It sounds like both of you are heavily into each other physically...some distance will allow for a clearer mind.
She'll make her decision, but you want to be sure that she made it entirely on her own, without any extreme pressure from you. If she feels pushed into it, chances are she'll find that hard to forgive later on.

[Lionne]

About your response to PRR, sometimes it's easier to stay with someone because it's comfortable, because it's what your used to and it's 'not all that bad'. Maybe she was giving him a chance, maybe he was telling her over and over he'd change? There are a lot of factors, but I'd guess that familiarity was a big one. It's hard to make that jump when you don't know what you're jumping to.

[cowgirl]

It sounds like you've been doing things right so far, with a good balance between looking out for yourself and for her. But please, I know this isn't IMHO, but this

that she'll try her best to see me, even if it's in a public place with no physical contact.

looks to me like a recipe for disaster.

Do you really want to see her in a public place with no physical contact, as she keeps you posted on the ups and downs of her relationship with her boyfriend? Really? Because I've never met anyone in your situation who genuinely wants that.

What you want is for her to choose you and dump the boyfriend. The only alternatives are (a) for her to choose the boyfriend and dump you, or (b) for her to continue on in this purgatorial state (which is what a lot of people do when they have a safe guy at home and an exciting new guy who tolerates the situation). Both of those alternatives would make it suck hugely for you to hang around with her as her "friend."

If she chooses (a), could you really be her friend? Why would you want to? Down that path lies another OP from you in many months time: "How do I get over this friend of mine who rejected me but who I'm still in love with?" The responses to this thread will all be "don't hang around her any more!" Don't be that guy who watches helplessly as the woman he loves is mistreated by a jerk, and waits for her to realize that she is too good to date assholes and should be with you instead. That strategy rarely works.

If she chooses (b) then the thread in six months would be more along the lines of "How do I get the woman I love to leave her BF for me after six months?" ... and that would not end any better.

You have told her what kind of relationship you want from her and given her the opportunity to choose to take it or leave it. Don't give her the chance to hurt you any more than that.

[Agent Foxtrot]

Originally Posted by ZipperJJ

<snip>What is this "security" she's holding on to with her boyfriend? Is he paying for her school or something? That sounds like a weird reason for an adult to stick around with someone they don't particularly like.</snip>

Good question, ZipperJJ. I'm wondering the same thing myself. She was laid off from her job a couple of months ago as a paralegal for a mortgage lawyer, and she's been living off her savings since. He's been providing some minimal financial help when she absolutely needs it (last week she strained her back moving furniture, and he paid $500 for the emergency room and said that was her birthday present ), but in lieu of that, she feels that he doesn't provide the emotional support that anyone needs in a relationship.

Originally Posted by ZipperJJ

I agree with prr tho...stay cool. You're going to have to suffer in silence - or at least out of her earshot. And don't play kiddie games like sending secret messages or meeting up for snuggles while dude is out of town. That will just make things worse for you if it doesn't work out.

I don't plan to go any further than a hug until she decides what she wants. I am only a man, though, so I'll need her to help keep things on the up-and-up too. :

[Agent Foxtrot]

Originally Posted by cowgirl

It sounds like you've been doing things right so far, with a good balance between looking out for yourself and for her. But please, I know this isn't IMHO, but this

looks to me like a recipe for disaster.

Do you really want to see her in a public place with no physical contact, as she keeps you posted on the ups and downs of her relationship with her boyfriend? Really? Because I've never met anyone in your situation who genuinely wants that.

What you want is for her to choose you and dump the boyfriend. The only alternatives are (a) for her to choose the boyfriend and dump you, or (b) for her to continue on in this purgatorial state (which is what a lot of people do when they have a safe guy at home and an exciting new guy who tolerates the situation). Both of those alternatives would make it suck hugely for you to hang around with her as her "friend."

If she chooses (a), could you really be her friend? Why would you want to? Down that path lies another OP from you in many months time: "How do I get over this friend of mine who rejected me but who I'm still in love with?" The responses to this thread will all be "don't hang around her any more!" Don't be that guy who watches helplessly as the woman he loves is mistreated by a jerk, and waits for her to realize that she is too good to date assholes and should be with you instead. That strategy rarely works.

If she chooses (b) then the thread in six months would be more along the lines of "How do I get the woman I love to leave her BF for me after six months?" ... and that would not end any better.

You have told her what kind of relationship you want from her and given her the opportunity to choose to take it or leave it. Don't give her the chance to hurt you any more than that.

This post makes a lot of sense. You're right, I don't want to be that guy. I've seen others there before and it sucks. One thing I want to ask about, though:

Originally Posted by cowgirl

You have told her what kind of relationship you want from her and given her the opportunity to choose to take it or leave it. Don't give her the chance to hurt you any more than that.

How do you think I should phrase this to her? So far, words with her have come very easily for me, but it sounds to me like if someone forces a decision "It's either him or me," nine times out of ten she's going to choose him.

[Zeriel]

Originally Posted by Agent Foxtrot

I don't plan to go any further than a hug until she decides what she wants. I am only a man, though, so I'll need her to help keep things on the up-and-up too. :

That's crap. Cowboy up and decide for yourself that you're going to keep things on the up-and-up--having a penis does not give you a get-out-of-rational-thought-free card.

[cowgirl]

Originally Posted by Agent Foxtrot

How do you think I should phrase this to her? So far, words with her have come very easily for me, but it sounds to me like if someone forces a decision "It's either him or me," nine times out of ten she's going to choose him.

It sounds like you've established good communication with her, so can you just tell her? how about something like:

"You know I can't imagine my life without you. But it's just too hard for me to be in this situation, where you keep telling me you want to be with me, but you don't do what's necessary to make it happen. I am ready to be with you whenever you are ready to be with me but I just can't go on like this. As much as it hurts me to say it I just can't see you until the situation with your boyfriend is resolved."

I once knew someone who should have said this to me. He didn't. It ended poorly for all of us, and it would have ended better for all of us if he had.

[Phlosphr]

Originally Posted by cowgirl

It sounds like you've established good communication with her, so can you just tell her? how about something like:

"You know I can't imagine my life without you. But it's just too hard for me to be in this situation, where you keep telling me you want to be with me, but you don't do what's necessary to make it happen. I am ready to be with you whenever you are ready to be with me but I just can't go on like this. As much as it hurts me to say it I just can't see you until the situation with your boyfriend is resolved."

I once knew someone who should have said this to me. He didn't. It ended poorly for all of us, and it would have ended better for all of us if he had.

Exactly - you are gushing over her and it's prbably very flattering to her and, obviously, she likes it and enjoys being physicial with you...however, she enjoys being physical with her "safe" boyfriend as well.

Gush over ourself, be friends with who you are, and allow what is going to happen between you two to just happen. No more fawning over her if you really want her. If it's meant to be she will make the right decision and be with you, if it's not, you will meet someone down the road who will 'light your fire' as well.

Stay cool...dissappear for a few days with no contact...see what happens

[Agent Foxtrot]

Originally Posted by cowgirl

"You know I can't imagine my life without you. But it's just too hard for me to be in this situation, where you keep telling me you want to be with me, but you don't do what's necessary to make it happen. I am ready to be with you whenever you are ready to be with me but I just can't go on like this. As much as it hurts me to say it I just can't see you until the situation with your boyfriend is resolved."

Perfect. I can see myself saying that to her.

Originally Posted by Phlosphr

Stay cool...dissappear for a few days with no contact...see what happens

Don't answer her call tomorrow?

[Phlosphr]

Originally Posted by Agent Foxtrot

Don't answer her call tomorrow?

No.

I wouldn't, she's a smart girl, no? If she is interested in you above and beyond her boyfriend she will do the mature thing a leave him for you. Her relationship honestly doesn't sound that solid if she is spending the night with you, making out, doing everything but the holiest of holy, and yet is still technically with someone else. That does not sound like a solid lovey, lovey relationship.

However, her reluctance to out and out leave him has basis in something...you said she mentioned he is an executive and likes to go to Vegas. This tells me he has money, perhaps she likes that, and is willing to give up some of her emotional attachment to him for you, yet stay with him because he represents strong financial prowess.

In this case, find someone who will be your partner, not your f*ck buddy. Sorry to be blunt.

[Agent Foxtrot]

Originally Posted by Phlosphr

No.

I wouldn't, she's a smart girl, no? If she is interested in you above and beyond her boyfriend she will do the mature thing a leave him for you. Her relationship honestly doesn't sound that solid if she is spending the night with you, making out, doing everything but the holiest of holy, and yet is still technically with someone else. That does not sound like a solid lovey, lovey relationship.

However, her reluctance to out and out leave him has basis in something...you said she mentioned he is an executive and likes to go to Vegas. This tells me he has money, perhaps she likes that, and is willing to give up some of her emotional attachment to him for you, yet stay with him because he represents strong financial prowess.

In this case, find someone who will be your partner, not your f*ck buddy. Sorry to be blunt.

Fine, I can do that. When should I finally respond to her?

Yes, he has financial security. I do too, but I don't make nearly what he makes. I made it clear to her that I can't really help her out financially, but I can always be there emotionally. I agree that in this tumultuous period in her life, she probably needs to know that she can be helped if she's in a bind. I suppose she needs to make the decision whether emotional or financial support is more important to her in the long run.

You're 100% correct on all accounts, Phlsophr. I just hope that she doesn't perceive my not answering her calls as loss of interest.

Please do be blunt. It's exactly what I need right now.

Edit: He's currently building a house for his parents, so she can't possibly see him as an endless source of money. Just a thought.

[twickster]

Regardless of why she might choose him over you, she might choose him over you. That's not about your worth as a human being, that's about what her priorities are.

Thirding or fourthing the concensus, you need to just tell her upfront, "I can't see you or talk to you until you make a decision. When you make a decision, let me know what it is, but until then, please don't contact me."

And then get on with your life until she gets back to you.

[dangermom]

I guess I don't quite agree that you shouldn't answer her next call. After all, you need to deliver your little speech and make your stand (which I totally, completely agree that you should do). I would say that the next time she calls, tell her exactly what has been said here, and tell her that you can't talk with her any more until she's made a decision. If she calls again without a decision one way or the other, kindly tell her that you can't see her until she makes up her mind. If you feed her with long, soulful conversations, it will just drag out the agony. So keep conversations short unless and until she drops the boyfriend.

[twickster]

continuation of my above post:

I was in a not entirely dissimilar situation a few years ago. I got involved with a married man, which was a bad idea but there you go, we all do dumb shit once in a while. We broke things off and I told him "the only conversation I can have with you is one that begins with you telling me you are leaving your wife." He contacted me sporadically in a "friendly" manner about this, but each time I repeated, "the only conversation I can have with you...."

Finally he did leave his wife. I told him I thought he should spend a little time getting his head around that (they'd been together 20 years +) before jumping into another relationship -- he disagreed, so the last I heard he was dating some coworker or something. In our last conversation, I finally let go of a lot of the anger I had towards him, and I haven't talked to him since (9 months or so). I periodically wonder what's going on with him, and think about checking in with him -- in a "friendly" manner -- but know that's a bad idea.

ETA: What dangermom said.

[Phlosphr]

Originally Posted by Agent Foxtrot

Please do be blunt. It's exactly what I need right now.

Edit: He's currently building a house for his parents, so she can't possibly see him as an endless source of money. Just a thought.

He's building a house for his parents. Ok, so he's loaded, and yes, that could very well be evident for her, especially if it is evident to me, a complete stranger.

Yes, I would stay away for a little while. Like Twickster said, get on with your day to day. It sounds to me like she is not going to lose interest, not if you don't call for one day, or two. Now if you don't call her and she is calling you incessently, well, it's truly time to put the cake on the table and be straight with her.
"Look, I am really into you, I could see myself falling for you totally. However, I don't want to allow myself to fall for you if you are with another man, obviously. So if you are going to stay with Brad [he sounds like a Brad...] then stay with him and I will get on with my life. If you'd like to foster a loving relationship with me, then leave him. It's the only way we won't be playing with my emotions and we will both be honest. "

So instead of ignoring her call, tell her something along those lines.

edit: yes what they said,so tell her the truth now. And don't be a jerk and not check back in and let us know what happens.

[Omegaman]

I'd buy her a ring.

No guts, no glory.

[Acsenray]

Originally Posted by Agent Foxtrot

Without getting into the nitty-gritty of the conversation, I'll tell you that I asked her who she as more feelings for. Without hesitation she said me, but she's starting school again and she just needs safety and security right now.

Wake up, dude. The lady comes with a price tag. You're well rid of her.

[RickJay]

Originally Posted by Agent Foxtrot

Thanks for responding, PRR. I can step back and be cool, but the thing that bothers me is that she was with her boyfriend for a year and a half before she met me and still stuck with him in spite of his failings. She broke up with him in April for about 6 weeks, but they got back together.

If I may offer any advice, I would suggest you mak your feelings clear - I am sure you have but sometimes people need to hear it again - and state that there will come a point when hse has to decide if she wants you or not.

You don't have to set a deadline. Just ensure she knows that she needs to make a decision.

Because if you don't, she won't.

[Agent Foxtrot]

Originally Posted by acsenray

Wake up, dude. The lady comes with a price tag. You're well rid of her.

See, that's what I initially thought, too. But as I got to know her, I found her to be an extremely frugal person who has not asked her boyfriend for help unless she's absolutely needed it (like going to the emergency room). She's currently restoring her family's two-story, 100-year-old house entirely with her own elbow grease. She lamented to me one time that she'll try to fix something on her own when her boyfriend just asks, "Why don't you just call someone?" She came from a working class family, and doesn't just "call someone" when something breaks.

[Acsenray]

Originally Posted by Agent Foxtrot

See, that's what I initially thought, too. But as I got to know her, I found her to be an extremely frugal person who has not asked her boyfriend for help unless she's absolutely needed it (like going to the emergency room). She's currently restoring her family's two-story, 100-year-old house entirely with her own elbow grease. She lamented to me one time that she'll try to fix something on her own when her boyfriend just asks, "Why don't you just call someone?" She came from a working class family, and doesn't just "call someone" when something breaks.

It's not about what she is willing to spend money on or what she wants it for, but rather the fact that she is willing to sacrifice actual love and companionship in exchange for having money ("safety and security"). To me that says that even if she ends up choosing you in the short term, the tragic end is already foretold in the long run. She might make Richie Rich miserable in the long run, too, (she's already screwing with him right now) but at least it won't be your headache then.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Uh... don't break off all contact. Don't be in her face.

Just make it clear that any contact you DO have stays in the friend zone.

And good luck!

One last thing: once a cheater, always a cheater. If she does leave the other guy for you, don't get too attached.

[lavenderviolet]

Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright

One last thing: once a cheater, always a cheater. If she does leave the other guy for you, don't get too attached.

That's what stuck out to me. You may get her to leave this other guy and you may have fun together for a while but don't get your hopes up for this to end Happily Ever After.
She has shown you who she really is with the way she is treating her other man. The way she is treating him right now is not about him being The Bad Guy or not paying enough attention to her, it's about who she is and how she behaves in relationships. She is the kind of woman who uses a man for his money and then jumps into bed with someone new before ending her relationship (and even if you didn't actually have intercourse, it sounds like you did stuff you wouldn't want your girlfriend to do with another man before she had officially broken up with you). Don't expect her to treat you any better.
A certain segment of the female population out there is willing to toy with guys' hearts for the sake of getting as much money as they can out of them. Think about Siam Sam's threads warning us about all those Thai bargirls.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Two things we know about her:


1. She cheats on her boyfriend (and making out is cheating. Don't kid yourself that it isn't). If she's willing to mac around on this boyfriend, how much would you really be able to trust her if you become the out of town boyfriend?

2. She prioritizes money above affection. I ain't saying she's a golddigger but....


These are not good qualities in a potential mate. You may be better off without her. It's hard to have objectivity when you're in the throes of infatuation, though. If you're convinced you're in love, I think you need to go with the ultimatum. Don't drag it out and torture yourself. Prepare yourself emotionally for this to be history, then it will be a nice surprise if she shows up at your door with her bags packed.

A word of warning -- the incumbent boyfriend has a huge advantage. He has the access and the history and really, the better knowledge of who she is. Plus, he's the one she's sleeping with. It's hard to compete against that. Chances are he's going to reel her back in. You should probably move on. And as trite as it sounds, there really are other fish in the sea.

[KneadToKnow]

Anybody who needs to get their security from their SO isn't somebody I'd want to be with. YMMV.

[lobotomyboy63]

FWIW, I call this scenario "The catalyst consumed by the reaction."

A couple is dating...things aren't going great. Maybe he takes her for granted or proactively pisses her off.

At this point, she may call him and say: "I don't know if this is going to work out" or make other grumblings about the relationship. But there's an inertia, possibly fueled by empty threats or indecision, etc. Maybe he gives some lip service but nothing happens.

To her, the grass starts looking mighty green on the other side, and a situation like the one you describe comes up. So she jumps the fence. Intense makeout, love is so wonderful, yadda.

At this point, she may call him and say the very same words: "I don't know if this is going to work out" or make the same other grumblings about the relationship. But this time, it's different. Maybe it's her tone of voice that lets him know, 'Wow, she's not fucking around this time!' Because after all, she's emboldened with the knowledge that she can kick him to the curb...you're already in the bullpen so there's little uncertainty in her mind, which she subtly conveys whether she's trying to or not.

Or, if she's seen him in person, maybe it's the expression on her face. Or maybe it's that she calls faithfully every night at a given time and suddenly it stopped. It could be soooo subtle that the conscious mind can't detect it, but his subconscious knows good and well that something has changed.

So at this point, he REALLY listens to her and like most people, his reaction will be "Baby, come back! I didn't mean it! We can make this work!" etc. And he means it. For awhile, at least. Long enough for you to be harpooned through the heart, anyway.

You catalyzed a reaction for them and then...well, where are *you* in that beaker?

Backtrack: some would get high and mighty and say, "Shame on you for messing with another man's woman!" Well, ok, maybe, I don't know. But I've long suspected that what we call "morals" or "ethics" are really shorthand for the most practical way to live.

I.e. yes, he doesn't deserve her, and yes, if she were truly happy with him she wouldn't be vulnerable to you, etc. All the academics aside, it's worse than not getting the girl...it's knowing that you started a chain reaction that blew up in your face.

I really do sympathize with following your heart...and I hesitated to post some of this. But when I've been burned, I've always forced myself to learn from it. The only thing worse than going through some things is going through them twice.

My advice? I think you're already screwed. I'd lay low, let her call you. But I think she's already gone back to him---in her heart if not in the flesh---when she's asking that you meet in a public place etc.

[Omegaman]

Originally Posted by lobotomyboy63

My advice? I think you're already screwed. I'd lay low, let her call you. But I think she's already gone back to him---in her heart if not in the flesh---when she's asking that you meet in a public place etc.

Although there is thruth to be found here, don't let fear rule you.

If you wan't something bad enough you have to grit your teeth and make your move.

All of this is speculation at this point.

I know this is cliche' but its better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

If it's lost, it's already gone. Treading lightly will only make your pain last longer.

Either way, stand tall dog.

Just my hard earned 2 cents.

[Siam Sam]

Originally Posted by lavenderviolet

A certain segment of the female population out there is willing to toy with guys' hearts for the sake of getting as much money as they can out of them. Think about Siam Sam's threads warning us about all those Thai bargirls.

Indeed! Forewarned is forearmed.

This episode reminds me of an incident way back when I was an undergrad. I started dating the daughter of the dean of my college. All went well for a while until one day she confessed she had a fiancee but wanted to keep me on the side. Huh! Well, I admit at first I sort of felt a thrill to be "the other guy," but that rapidly wore off, and upon giving it some serious thought, I broke it off with her in a friendly way.

I think the OP is probably better off without this lady, although he won't be able to see that for a while. She sounds like she may be seriously messed up, and no, he cannot "save" her. I've seen guys in his condition over here, and I recommend he stay out of tall buildings for a spell.

[lobotomyboy63]

She rushes to his arms; they fall together
She whispers that it's only for awhile
She swears that soon she'll be coming back forever
She pulls away and leaves him with a smile.

The Eagles/Lyin' Eyes

I think that's the sort of thing you need to be hearing and seeing from her, OP, if you are to believe she's leaning your way. Also, quoting Diogenes:

A word of warning -- the incumbent boyfriend has a huge advantage. He has the access and the history and really, the better knowledge of who she is. Plus, he's the one she's sleeping with. It's hard to compete against that. Chances are he's going to reel her back in.

Women especially hate to think that they've been wasting their time on someone. Maybe her friends/family have been telling her to dump him and she's resisted. Now she's "proven right" because he's 'finally come around' and everything's going to be great etc.

I'd really like to be wrong about this, but I wouldn't be surprised if they're engaged in a couple months.

[zweisamkeit]

I find it funny that you say:

Before I continue, let me just say that I was very interested in this woman, but kept myself at just the right distance because of her boyfriend. I had my intentions, but they weren't much of a secret at this point...We stopped just short of sex because she still was in a relationship, but we both agreed we wanted it and would wait.

With the attitude that you didn't do anything wrong. No offense dude, but while I can understand having feelings for her, you don't do that shit when you're in a relationship. IT'S CHEATING. Do you honestly think that ONLY sex is cheating? Because that's so completely wrong.

Don't get me wrong; you didn't make her cheat on her boyfriend. She definitely has responsibility. But you're painting yourself as this virtuous person by "holding back" while you're sucking face with a girl who has a boyfriend.

[Cat Whisperer]

This is why you don't date people who are already taken. Honestly, did you really think this would play out differently? Because her boyfriend was emotionally unavailable? The conversation you have when you are about to start dating someone who is already taken is, "You have a boyfriend. The position I want is filled. Let me know when it's vacant, and we'll take it from there."

[lobotomyboy63]

@zweisamkeit & featherlou: Playing devil's advocate a bit, the saying goes "All's fair in love and war." If I were dating a beautiful woman like her, I wouldn't give her cause to stray...she might cheat anyway if that's just how she is, but I wouldn't neglect her. Isn't it one of the universal laws that if you don't take care of what you have, you're bound to lose it?

I suspect sometimes in a scenario like this, the OP would get the girl...the problem here could be that she wasn't over the other guy to an extent that she was ready for someone new. If this situation arose three months from now, maybe it would have been all good. For all the things we look for in relationships, IME the one that usually makes or breaks it is timing.

Rewinding the OPs situation to this point described by featherlou

The conversation you have when you are about to start dating someone who is already taken is, "You have a boyfriend. The position I want is filled. Let me know when it's vacant, and we'll take it from there."

As a method to get the girl this is what I would suggest as well, but I'm very dubious. I think she'd feel busted, caught in the act. And she'll avoid seeing the OP, who now knows her flaws, faults, etc. because being in his presence will likely trigger guilt. She'll quite possibly feel like a slut for even suggesting it and dimly wonder if it's bs, if the OP really thinks she just isn't attractive enough. Another serving of guilt comes from contact with the bf.

The OP would need to do lots of damage control, say things like "Hey, you're only human" etc. And this could be like landing a 747 on the head of a pin, wanting to reassure her without luring her. In any case that guilt double scoop would probably drive her back to the bf, prompting her to want to "make it up" to him. That means sex, and sex cements relationships.

IOW the probability of success of this strategy must be under 10%. So, go for the girl and you lose; don't go for the girl and you very probably lose. Later, if the high-road strategy actually worked, when the OP and she are together and the OP feels insecure, he couldn't think, 'She'd never cheat' because he knows she did with him and she could have similar issues.

I bet a lot of not-very-introspective people get themselves into a situation like this and eventually, something comes up in their relationship that demands that they revisit issues. But a lot of people like the OP (who is brilliant simply by virtue of being on the dope, right?) also take that one teeny little step across a line and...well, you know.

[Vihaga]

Originally Posted by lobotomyboy63

"All's fair in love and war." If I were dating a beautiful woman like her, I wouldn't give her cause to stray...she might cheat anyway if that's just how she is, but I wouldn't neglect her.

People say that to justify their bad behavior. Besides, we don't really know how much the old boyfriend is neglecting her. We only know what she told to the person with whom she's cheating on her boyfriend, which doesn't exactly give her the highest credibility ever.

You're trying to paint both of you as victims of circumstance. You're not, and she's not. Think about it, know that she's cheating on her boyfriend to be with you (most people would consider "holding back just from sex" to be cheating, imo), and decide whether the potential relationship is worth it. Then think about how long you're willing to let her string you along. Once you decide those things, it'll be easy to decide whether to ask her to choose, cut her loose, or keep being the guy who listens to her complain about her boyfriend during the occasional make out session.

[zweisamkeit]

Originally Posted by Vihaga

People say that to justify their bad behavior. Besides, we don't really know how much the old boyfriend is neglecting her. We only know what she told to the person with whom she's cheating on her boyfriend, which doesn't exactly give her the highest credibility ever.

Exactly. So, lobotomyboy63, your "all's fair" philosophy means you would be doing nothing wrong if the woman was married and you were fucking her brains out?

And a woman/relationship is not something to look at as a conquest. How about, I dunno, a relationship of equals?

[Really Not All That Bright]

Originally Posted by zweisamkeit

And a woman/relationship is not something to look at as a conquest. How about, I dunno, a relationship of equals?

Well that's certainly a novel idea.

Anyway, this woman isn't like other women. She's got little to no willpower and less consideration, else she'd have done the right thing and dumped the other guy or not hooked up with the OP.

Honestly, I feel pretty shitty for the actual boyfriend. He's the one getting the shaft here.

[Ferret Herder]

Originally Posted by lobotomyboy63

@zweisamkeit & featherlou: Playing devil's advocate a bit, the saying goes "All's fair in love and war." If I were dating a beautiful woman like her, I wouldn't give her cause to stray...she might cheat anyway if that's just how she is, but I wouldn't neglect her. Isn't it one of the universal laws that if you don't take care of what you have, you're bound to lose it?

Agreed with the others so far, that's just a way to justify what you're doing. I suspect the OP would be very displeased if a hypothetical girlfriend of his was doing all of that stuff with another guy.

[spifflog]

I concur with most who say that the intimacy that has happened (both physical and emotional) thus far does constitute cheating. Anything that you won't want your significant other to do with another is cheating. No doubt about it.

Having said that if you really want this woman, here's what I would do:

Make it clear to her that you are interested. Make it very clear. Don't err on the side of caution, but don't be a psycho. Women can smell that a mile away and it smells really bad. If in doubt that you're going too far, try and view your actions from the other side. If a woman did this for you (a note, an email with your feelings, flowers, etc,) would you be scared off? If so, don't so it. Additionally, you have to look back on this and be pleased that you stepped up to the plate, but not feel embarrassed or like a wimp afterwards. A fine line, but not so fine that you can't find it.

Here is the most important part. Once you make it clear you want her in your life, step back and don't do a thing. Not a call, email, voice mail. Nothing. I think it's important to leave the woman (or a guy if the rolls were reversed) with a good sense of the possibilities of the relationship, coupled with the knowledge (growing as time goes by) that she is in danger of losing it.

I think this gives you the best chance of winning her over, coupled with the knowledge that if you don't, you feel that you made an effort, but didn't embarrass yourself. Either way, you can feel good about who you are.

[TVeblen]

Originally Posted by Really Not All That Bright

Honestly, I feel pretty shitty for the actual boyfriend. He's the one getting the shaft here.

Oh, yeah. Since he's relatively loaded it's safe to assume he probably works, and he's also in process of building a house for his parents. He sounds like a pretty danged decent guy to me, and one who has a hell of a lot on his plate at the moment. I've overseen three construction projects and they soaked up every spare minute I had and a lot that I didn't have to spare. If Boyfriend isn't paying much attention to this girl right now, gee, maybe there's a reason.

Even if he's a complete shit he still doesn't deserve to be treated as nothing more than a reserve safety net.

It can suck to be poor--been there, in spades--but lack of money doesn't have to erode character. This girl may be in tight circumstances at the moment but I'm not impressed with how she's treating anyone in this drama.

[elfkin477]

Originally Posted by spifflog

Here is the most important part. Once you make it clear you want her in your life, step back and don't do a thing. Not a call, email, voice mail. Nothing. I think it's important to leave the woman (or a guy if the rolls were reversed) with a good sense of the possibilities of the relationship, coupled with the knowledge (growing as time goes by) that she is in danger of losing it.

Men always give other guys this supposedly sage advice, but why? It's a weak approach almost guaranteed to fail. No one likes the silent treatment, and they say "out of sight, out of mind" for a reason. If you cut off all contact with a well-adjust person, most of them feel rejected for a short while and get over you in favor of people they actually interact with because playing head games with someone already indecisive isn't likely to tip the balance in your favor. The ones who obsess over winning you back after you do something like this are the ones you don't want as a girlfriend.

[Diogenes the Cynic]

Originally Posted by elfkin477

Men always give other guys this supposedly sage advice, but why? It's a weak approach almost guaranteed failure. No one likes the silent treatment, and they say "out of sight, out of mind" for a reason. If you cut off all contact with a well-adjust person, most of them feel rejected for a short while and get over you in favor of people they actually interact with. The ones who obsess over winning you back after you do something like this are the ones you don't want as a girlfriend.

You're saying it's better to be stalkerish?

Too bad if she doesn't like the silent treatment. It's not done for strategy. It's done for the sake of the guy's mental health. You don't stalk a girl that's taken and whine and plead for her to break up with her SO. You say "call me when you're available," and move on with your life. It's not a tactic. It's not something that's supposed to "work." It's just being an adult, accepting that you have no control over a situation and not torturing yourself about it.

[vetbridge]

You should go to Vegas and enter the Super Duper World Series of Poker Tournament (TM). After playing non-stop for 72 hours, it will come down to you and the boyfriend. When he goes all in and you are holding an unbeatable hand, look into the crowd and you will see her watching. You should then show her your hand, fold, snd walk away from the table, telling her it is her you want.

There are a number of wedding chapels to choose from in Vegas.

[gigi]

Brilliant!

[Really Not All That Bright]

Originally Posted by vetbridge

You should go to Vegas and enter the Super Duper World Series of Poker Tournament (TM). After playing non-stop for 72 hours, it will come down to you and the boyfriend. When he goes all in and you are holding an unbeatable hand, look into the crowd and you will see her watching. You should then show her your hand, fold, snd walk away from the table, telling her it is her you want.

...sadly, though, since the girl doesn't understand poker, she'll just think you folded because you had a crap hand, and within the hour she'll be saying "I do" in front of Elvis, but not to you.

[spifflog]

Originally Posted by elfkin477

Men always give other guys this supposedly sage advice, but why? It's a weak approach almost guaranteed to fail. No one likes the silent treatment, and they say "out of sight, out of mind" for a reason. If you cut off all contact with a well-adjust person, most of them feel rejected for a short while and get over you in favor of people they actually interact with because playing head games with someone already indecisive isn't likely to tip the balance in your favor. The ones who obsess over winning you back after you do something like this are the ones you don't want as a girlfriend.

I think this strategy as you put isn't playing games. It's being realistic to all involved.

The "silent treatment" is the only course open to one at some point. That is why I suggested that he put all his cards on the table, tell her that he wants a relationship with her first. Be honest and forthright. Don't play games. But then move on with his life. Mostly this is for his well being. There is nothing good that will come from his torturing himself over her. And he needs to act in a way that he can live with himself thereafter.

My experience in life, and in my love life such that it is, has taught be a couple of things, YMMV but:

- Given the option, most people will choose to have their cake and eat it too, and,

- no one will date someone that they think is a loser. If you don't respect yourself, no one else will respect you either.

Continuing to bang one's head against the wall and saying "I'll always be here for you" will only make this woman think she can have both of them, and given enough time, make her think only a loser would tolerate this situation and wait for her. People do respond when they think someone is moving on.

I hate trading bumper stickers, but you say "out of sight, out of mind." I could say "absence makes the heart grow fonder."

Not to be snide in anyway, but the "loveable loser" who never gives up, only gets the girl in the movies. In real life, he's left in the gulley as road kill. At the end of the day, you are left without the girl, and you'll feel like an idiot. It's one thing to feel bad about a lost relationship. It's another to feel bad about a lost relationship and lose one's self esteem in the process.

[Agent Foxtrot]

First off, I want to thank everyone for their candid, honest, and helpful responses. You all have given me a lot to think about, and I feel much, much better than I did yesterday. That said, I'm noticing a couple of themes here that people are touching on:

1. We cheated. I didn't deny it from the beginning, but I didn't address it, either. I always told myself that I would never be the other guy, and I am. On one hand, I feel kind of shitty for it, but on the other hand, I can't regret the awesome weekend I had with her.

2. I need to present to her in clear words the decision she needs to make. Be firm, but not an asshole, and stick to my guns.

3. I'm only getting her side of the story when it comes to her relationship with her boyfriend. He may indeed be a decent guy, but all I've gotten from her is complaints about him.

4. It's now very much on my mind that if she cheated on him, she'll cheat on me. I heard her lie to him on several occasions. If she does end up coming back, we're going to have to have a long discussion about trust before we proceed any further.

5. What really struck me was this:

Originally Posted by Diogenes the Cynic

She prioritizes money above affection. I ain't saying she's a golddigger but....

Yeah.

I'll respond more soon. Thanks, everyone, for your honesty and support.

[Really Not All That Bright]

Originally Posted by Agent Foxtrot

I'll respond more soon. Thanks, everyone, for your honesty and support.

Eh. All (or most) of us have been there before- in your shoes, his shoes, and even hers. I was probably a little harsher than you deserve; you haven't really done anything wrong here.

[Cat Whisperer]

Originally Posted by lobotomyboy63

<snip>

Rewinding the OPs situation to this point described by featherlou

The conversation you have when you are about to start dating someone who is already taken is, "You have a boyfriend. The position I want is filled. Let me know when it's vacant, and we'll take it from there."

As a method to get the girl this is what I would suggest as well, but I'm very dubious. <snip>

I wasn't trying to help him get the girl; I was trying to help him not get his heart stomped on like this again in the future.

ETA: On reading the thread, what Dio said. And if she lies, she's a liar. You really want a liar, Agent Foxtrot? I truly am sympathetic to you, but please, find a better woman.