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#1
12-17-2010, 06:48 PM
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McNabb - Visiting the trade a year later
Hearing that Donovan McNabb was benched for the rest of the season, I thought it would be a good time to revisit this heated thread McNabb now a Redskin
I was one of the biggest critics of McNabb, and had little doubt that he would fail this year and the Redskins would stink. Well, the Redskins stink (5-8), and McNabb has been benched in favor of Rex Freakin'Grossman, possibly the single worst quarterback in the NFL over the past decade. At the beginning of the season, I was curious as to how things would turn out. McNabb had lost considerable weight and looked much younger. It looked like he wanted to prove to the world what a mistake Philadelphia made. Ultimately, he couldn't do it. There are a lot of rumors flying around as to why, and some may have merit. The biggest seems to be that head coach Mike Shanahan, who was fortunate enough to coach John Elway, decided to make his son the offensive coordinator. It seems that Shanahan's son and McNabb didn't get along. The McNabb camp has chosen their excuse, and I honestly don't know how much merit it has. But it is the one that will stand until something else comes along, and I suppose it's as good as any. So, what happens in the off season? McNabb signed a 5 year contract this year to stay in Washington, but they can pull the plug on it at the end of the year without owing a dime. Or, they can fire Shanahan, and start over again in Washington. I think McNabb is done in Washington, and will pop up next year (perhaps Minnesota?). We'll never know how Kolb would have done with a full year, since Vick has played well and wants to stay in Philadelphia. They will most likely keep him, so Kolb may not be back in Philadelphia. He didn't break out at the beginning of the year, and an injury put Vick behind center. His play kept him there. But I've heard nothing about Kolb's future to know for sure. I'm curious as to other's thoughts on this, especially the McNabb supporters. Can you finally admit that McNabb is not the great QB you thought and the Eagles are better off without him? 
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#2
12-17-2010, 08:33 PM
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I spent that entire thread trying to point out that you were assigning opinions about the dude to his supporters that they didn't really hold. If there's anybody around these parts who has proven a willingness to go to the wall defending McNabb, it's me, only in that thread I wasn't talking about how great he was. I was poking holes in the fiction you had created about what he is as a football player.
You've already done it twice in the OP, and I don't really have time to go-merry-round about it again, so this'll probably be my only post, but here's your answer: I feel the same about McNabb, but I was wrong; the Eagles are better than I thought they'd be. But it isn't because of how ready Kevin Kolb was to take them to the Super Bowl. Let's not forget that the crux of your position -- well, let's say the central locus of your manifold positions that you skipped from, one to the next -- and the thing that his 'supporters,' i.e. mostly me, were arguing about was that dumping McNabb was essential for the Eagles to become a championship team. And they haven't done anything they didn't do repeatedly with Donovan McNabb. Last edited by Jimmy Chitwood; 12-17-2010 at 08:34 PM.
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#3
12-17-2010, 09:05 PM
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Just so I'm clear (because I clearly am not), what is the fiction I created about what he is as a football player?
You said I mentioned it twice in the OP. I'm not asking you to restate your position of last year if you don't want to. I'm curious as to what I've said that you don't agree with. 1) if it's the last sentence, I think one part of last years argument is and will always be an unknown. Since it was Vick, and not Kolb, that has run the team at QB, one of the principal reasons the Eagles allegedly moved McNabb will never be proven one way or the other. 2) If it is the point that McNabb is not the great QB you thought, I think that should be self evident of the Redskins offense this year, along with his benching earlier in the season. This end of season benching is just the final nail in the coffin of either McNabb or Shanahan in Washington. Seeing how Snyder is involved in everything, and getting rid of McNabb costs the team no money at the end of this season, my guess (and I admit it's just a guess) Shanahan stays. If McNabb was setting the world on fire, he's still be playing. Most of the posters last year thought the Redskins got the best end of the trade, and they were going to be a playoff team this year.
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#4
12-17-2010, 09:24 PM
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Lets get down to brass tacks.
McNabb is old. Not in years, but in mileage. He doesn't have the mobility or more importantly the arm strength that he once had. He used to rely on his physical attributes to compliment his ability to read the defense. Now he can't rely on them any more and he either can't compensate enough in other areas to make up for those deficiencies or has quite come to realization that his laser rocket cannon arm is out of ammo. In Philadelphia, he had an offense that was custom designed based solely on his abilities. In Washington, he doesn't have that. Now, all that being said....the Redskins are a terrible organization. From the owner down to the ball boy. They have no idea how to build and run a successful football team. They were a terrible team before McNabb got there and they will be a terrible team when he leaves. If Michael Vick were in his place, he might likely be dead from defensive end impalement by now. I doubt anyone would argue that, in general, the team around him in Washington pales in talent, intelligence, and coaching to the one he had in Philly. Everyone outside of Washington had to know that this was gonna end badly for McNabb. Other than seeing that he doesn't quite have the physical gifts he once had and maybe hasn't quite reached the wily veteran stage yet, I don't know what you could take from this year regarding his past or future in the league.
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#5
12-17-2010, 10:46 PM
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I'm ready for this year to be over just so I don't have to listen to hour after hour day after day of 106.7 trashing this team and constantly bitching about McNabb and Haynesworth. DC is a shitty sports town and will only support their teams if they are totally dominant (The Caps last year) and turn on them as soon as they hit a rough stretch (The Caps right now). They will only root for a winner and hate even the slightest mediocrity in their teams. Hell they have already started booing the Caps and they are in first place for christs sake.
Yeah McNabb sucks and Snyder has made some seriously bad deals in the last two years but this town is the most fair-weather sports town in America and must be hard to play in.
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#6
12-17-2010, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
The Redskins have been selling out games forever, and that's not just a function of a large metro population. Yes Dan Snyder sucks as an owner, no doubt. Its not that he isn't a fan or doesn't try, he's like the opposite of Mike Brown: both think they know what they are doing and make poor football decisions, likely overriding football-people within their respective organizations, but where Mike Brown is cheap Dan can't stop throwing money around in a vain effort to compete with Jerry Jones. McNabb doesn't suck...the team does. The Skins pass protection on the o-line is suspect, their running game sucks and their wideouts aren't really any good. They also have the worst overall defense in the entire NFL, which utterly affects their offense. Shanahan isn't going anywhere but his reign is sure off to a shaky and confusing start. I could maybe understand if the Skins had some rookie talent at QB they wanted to evaluate since they aren't making the playoffs, but freaking Grossman? He's never been a better option than McNabb. NEVER. McNabb left a better team for a poorer one. His performance is a reflection of that, not some notion that his skills are completely eroded. His team absolutely fucking blows.
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#7
12-17-2010, 11:07 PM
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The Skins may "sell out" regularly but that stadium is half empty for all but the biggest game so that doesn't mean much.
Sorry man but this town treats all their teams like shit unless they won the day before. I listen to it every day. Last edited by Cubsfan; 12-17-2010 at 11:08 PM.
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#8
12-17-2010, 11:50 PM
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#9
12-18-2010, 02:19 AM
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This is a tough one. Mainly, I just feel bad for Donny Mac.
I'm an Eagle fan and was sad to see him go. Thing is, we had to trade him at the time contract wise. I was welcoming a new starting QB in Kolb, understanding that his first year probably wouldn't be his best. I'm NOT glad I was right about that. Vick is fantastic, so is Jackson and McCoy, still need an offensive line that's halfway decent. But I'd LOVE to see McNabb in Minnesota. I was kind of hoping he would agree to be a backup for Favre in his last year starting and the Skins would trade somehow. Question is, does he still have it? Is he ruining the Redskins? One odd fact I'll point out is that in three games of fantasy football this year, I had Peyton Manning start and D Mac as a backup. On the three OT wins that the Redskins had this year, McNabb would've given me more points than Manning. (!!) But it was the OT that made it good for McNabb fantasy stats, NOT just regular game time.
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#10
12-18-2010, 03:05 AM
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Alright Stink Fish Pot, I'll bite. I've defended McNabb numerous times on this board, so I think I'm one of the people you were looking for. Unfortunately, I was always of the position that the Eagles were better off without McNabb because, though he is great (or was, I reserve judgment), his fit in Philly was a poor one from the very beginning. Okay, maybe you won't get what you were looking for from me.
Where I was wrong was in thinking the Redskins were good enough that their lack of a dependable QB was their sole concern, or at least their primary concern. It turns out their defense has regressed significantly from last season, their O-Line play is as bad as before or worse. their run game has regressed, and Shanahan has made questionable decision after questionable decision and put his reputation as a plus coach in jeopardy. And I don't just mean in his treatment of McNabb, he's made questionable game management decisions as well. I thought McNabb would be good enough for the Skins to hit 7-9 wins. They have improved from last season and with a couple other breaks (a poorly timed benching of their QB for an ice cold chump and a fumbled extra point) they could easily be 7-6 right now. Blaming McNabb for the 'Skins troubles is ludicrously asinine. He deserves some blame, but not all of it. Not even the majority of it. As for Kolb, he was benched because he was hurt. Vick did such a fine job that it forced Reid's hand. Yet, when Vick was hurt and Kolb got another chance, he dominated the Falcons (currently one of only two losses they've suffered) and really showed what he was capable of. Don't forget that. Kolb's numbers this season are still good enough to warrant getting a full season's try. Few QB's get less of a chance and show as much promise. He'll probably be back in Philly next season though, with Vick, because the Eagles have done a fantastic job managing their cap and not mortgaging their future. They can keep both and still only pay the entire position what most teams are paying for their #1 because of how they managed Vick's and Kolb's contracts. So to summarize: •McNabb is (was) a great QB and has done more with less than possibly any other QB in history. He overachieved in Philly, not underachieved. He is (was) historically great... just never great enough. •The Redskins are as bad as they are because of numerous factors, and McNabb is only a small one of them and not the most damaging. And yet, they're still 2 wins better than last season with 3 to play. •The Eagles made the right move trading him. There's one last thing that may prove important. The Eagles traded McNabb for a second round pick in 2010 and either a 3rd or 4th round pick in 2011, depending on a couple factors. It's a fourth unless one of these three happen: 1.) McNabb makes the Pro Bowl. Impossible, at this point. 2.) The Redskins win 9 games. Impossible, at this point. 3.) McNabb plays 70% of the team's snaps. So, McNabb is suddenly and shocking benched with three games left in the season, with little to no good explanation (from a coach who, in his explanations for benching McNabb before, very likely flat out lied). I can't find any indication whether this is still in play or not, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if Shanahan benched McNabb to protect that pick not because it had anything to do with his level of play this season.
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#11
12-18-2010, 07:08 AM
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#12
12-18-2010, 07:51 AM
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The QB is not, nor has it been the problem in Washington. There have been plenty of serviceable quarterbacks come through here, Danny Wuerffel and Shane Mathews notwithstanding.
This franchise is fucked ass-backward from the top down. They spent the last decade trading away as many draft picks as they possibly could in return for ultimately nothing, and the picks they had left they wasted on worthless players like Malcolm Kelly and Taylor Jacobs while letting the offensive and defensive lines decay into a bunch of useless has-beens and never-will-bes. The only things wrong with guys like Patrick Ramsey and Jason Campbell is they only had about 0.8 seconds to try and find a receiver. Now they're fielding the oldest roster in the NFL (or they were; at this point in the season all the old guys are broken so they're fielding a team of young-ish 2nd- and 3rd-teamers) and they've only got 7 drafts picks to try and replace like 40 players that are not helping this team improve at all. That said, Shanahan and (GM) Bruce Allen have only had 1 off-season to work on this piece of shit. Snyder and that idiot Vinny Cerrato had just a shade under a decade to fuck this team up to where it is now. To judge McNabb harshly in light of the train wreck that is the rest of this team is unfair. Granted, there were a lot of balls skipped off the ground and a couple of bad INT's here and there, but OTOH when the other team knows to have Cooley and Moss covered, there's really nowhere else to go but dump off to (FB) Mike Sellers for a 2-yard loss, or take a sack because the POS O-line forgot to block [insert defender's name]. Last edited by DCnDC; 12-18-2010 at 07:56 AM.
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#14
12-18-2010, 09:39 PM
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#16
12-19-2010, 03:54 PM
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For those of you that were/are McNabb supporters, this wasn't a post to gloat. I honestly never saw the greatness of McNabb that many of you saw. I think a large part of that had to do with my time watching Kordell Stewart in Pittsburgh. Stewart took the Steelers to at least 2 AFC championships (I think 3, but I'm sure of 2 so I'll stick with that). He lost both. He was Cowher's baby pick, and Cowher stuck with him much longer than any other coach would have. The Steelers squandered a few great teams with Kordell, and when Cowher finally gave up on him, he drafted Roethlisberger and won a SB.
Similar with McNabb. Reid's first pick, and his guy for so long. Blinded by what many of us saw on a weekly basis... the throws in the ground. The throws behind the receiver, who either dropped the pass or didn't pick up the yardage he could have if McNabb hit him in stride. The Eagles achieved in spite of McNabb, not because of him. Reid is a great coach, and this season shows that. McNabb isn't as great as many thought, and this season shows that. Not having any tie or loyalty to McNabb gave Shanahan the ability to bench him. McNabb is one and done in DC, and who knows where or if he'll show up somewhere next year. Where ever he pops up, he won't get Reid's benefit of the doubt and kid glove treatment. If he stinks, he'll be back on the bench again.
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#17
12-19-2010, 03:55 PM
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#18
12-19-2010, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Code:
Year W L T A B C D E F 2009 11 5 0 5 11 22 19 12 2 2008 9 6 1 6 9 22 4 3 14 2007 8 8 0 17 6 8 9 10 25 2006 10 6 0 6 2 11 15 15 9 2005 6 10 0 18 19 28 27 23 23 2004 13 3 0 8 9 24 2 10 11 2003 12 4 0 11 18 9 7 20 8 2002 12 4 0 4 10 7 2 4 4 2001 11 5 0 9 17 14 2 7 7 2000 11 5 0 12 17 15 4 10 13 Ranks A: Offensive Pts B: Offensive Yds C: Rush Yds D: Defensive Pts E: Defensive Yds F: Takeaway/giveaway ratio Code:
Year Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD Int Int% Y/A Y/C Y/G Rate 2009* 267 443 60.3 3553 22 10 2.3 8 13.3 253.8 92.9 2004* 300 469 64 3875 31 8 1.7 8.3 12.9 258.3 104.7 2003* 275 478 57.5 3216 16 11 2.3 6.7 11.7 201 79.6 2002* 211 361 58.4 2289 17 6 1.7 6.3 10.8 228.9 86 2001* 285 493 57.8 3233 25 12 2.4 6.6 11.3 202.1 84.3 2000* 330 569 58 3365 21 13 2.3 5.9 10.2 210.3 77.8 2008 345 571 60.4 3916 23 11 1.9 6.9 11.4 244.8 86.4 2007 291 473 61.5 3324 19 7 1.5 7 11.4 237.4 89.9 2006 180 316 57 2647 18 6 1.9 8.4 14.7 264.7 95.5 2005 211 357 59.1 2507 16 9 2.5 7 11.9 278.6 85 Last edited by Jimmy Chitwood; 12-19-2010 at 04:20 PM.
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#19
12-19-2010, 04:22 PM
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Shit.
Code:
Year Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD Int Int% Y/A Y/C Y/G Rate 2009 267 443 60.3 3553 22 10 2.3 8 13.3 253.8 92.9 2008 345 571 60.4 3916 23 11 1.9 6.9 11.4 244.8 86.4 2007 291 473 61.5 3324 19 7 1.5 7 11.4 237.4 89.9 2006 180 316 57 2647 18 6 1.9 8.4 14.7 264.7 95.5 2005 211 357 59.1 2507 16 9 2.5 7 11.9 278.6 85 2004 300 469 64 3875 31 8 1.7 8.3 12.9 258.3 104.7 2003 275 478 57.5 3216 16 11 2.3 6.7 11.7 201 79.6 2002 211 361 58.4 2289 17 6 1.7 6.3 10.8 228.9 86 2001 285 493 57.8 3233 25 12 2.4 6.6 11.3 202.1 84.3 2000 330 569 58 3365 21 13 2.3 5.9 10.2 210.3 77.8
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#20
12-19-2010, 05:12 PM
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I'm not sure I understand your stats, Jimmy.
But, if you are trying to convince me by showing McNabb's stats that he was the catalyst for the Eagles, I don't think you can make that case. The stats don't differentiate clutch throws vs throws in the first period with no pressure.
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#22
12-20-2010, 12:27 PM
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Interesting stats:
This year, McNabb has a 58.3% completion rate, averaging 259 Yds/Game, and a QB rating of 77.1 Over his career, he has a 58.9% completion rate, averaging 225 Yds/Game, and a QB rating of 85.7 The main difference is the TD/INT ratio of 14:15 this year, vs. a career average of about 19:10. My thoughts in the previous thread were Quote:
A win for the Eagles, a bad move for Washington, but it looks like he will be out of there soon after the final whistle in week 17.
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#23
12-20-2010, 01:43 PM
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::SIGH::
Mcnabb couldn't be a Super Bowl winner in his prime. Good and very good at prime career time was not enough. Was time to move on, and as a side effect this further highlighted Mcnabb's weakness, and the weaknesses are a bit more magnified due to age. Reid knew Mcnabb down to the core. I was harsh and then some in my criticism. Some folks thought I was being spoiled for not accepting just winning, when I insisted in Philadelphia we want a Super Bowl victory. When it was clear it couldn't be Mcnabb, demanding fans were glad to see him go. The Redskins are a train wreck. Mcnabb was part victim and part culprit this year. Last edited by Philster; 12-20-2010 at 01:47 PM.
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#25
12-20-2010, 03:03 PM
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Well... how should we proceed then?
We should do what -- exactly -- when we have a QB that seems to lack something? Should we disregard any issues or should we address/discuss them? Tom Brady and Michael Vick are doing some amazing things. With them, their teams might be "just" one little win better than without. If you follow sports.... well, then need I go on? Yep... 12-4 with a great QB or 11-5 with an okay guy. Then, there are the playoffs. The 11-5 guy got you in, but you had to travel, and he was about 1 play less effective than the great QB come playoff time. That. Is. Huge. Last edited by Philster; 12-20-2010 at 03:04 PM.
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#26
12-20-2010, 03:15 PM
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Quote:
I'm not sure that Shanahan really, really thought Interceptosaurus Rex gave him the best chance to win. Hope for his sake the 'Skins don't piss away that third-round pick...ah, what am I saying. Of course they will.
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#27
12-20-2010, 10:12 PM
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I had to check to see if I had said anything remotely stupid in the old thread. I was pretty optimistic and I thought the O-line would be better... well, they did draft Williams and they played better.
Granted we only have the Dallas game to look at... but once the first quarter was done Grossman looked pretty damn good. He did turn into Rex Grossman at the end of the game, but the ball was spread around to seven different receivers. They didn't run the ball at all hardly, despite having a beast in Torain. I've watched every game this season - and really, outside of the Houston game when McNabb threw for almost 500 yards, he hasn't looked good. Now there are tons of problems in DC - but McNabb played terribly and for the longest time, I was convinced that the Shanahans were the problem. But Grossman's performance suggests that maybe there is something to their comments about his preparation, familiarity with the playbook. If Grossman plays as well as he did yesterday next week then I will be very skeptical of how McNabb approached this season.
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#28
12-21-2010, 02:21 AM
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There's also that thing about the Cowboys having the 28th ranked pass defense too. They make people look better than they are.
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#29
12-21-2010, 07:33 AM
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Without looking, I can say I stand by what I said then: McNabb is not a Hall of Fame Quarterback, but he was Very Good, and is still Pretty Good. He was not awful this year.
It was time for him to go in Philly as they are surrounded, but he was a poor fit for the Redskins, who are in need of wholesale rebuilding from the ground up. The only part that is shocking/sad to me was the extension last month. It's shocking if the Skins are so inept that they sign a guy to an extension, and then give up on him a month later. That's raw incompetence. Of course, it's likely that Skins' plan is to sign him so they can trade him for a pick. If that's the case, I'm shocked that McNabb was so clueless as to not sense that he was not dwelling in the favor of Kyle Shanahan. It's possible, however, that McNabb knew full well that his time was short, and was willing to pass up free agency and accept being traded in return for a few million. That would be sad.
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#30
12-22-2010, 11:01 AM
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#31
12-23-2010, 09:21 AM
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My take now isn't that different from what it was at the time of the trade.
I've always thought McNabb was a very good but not great NFL quarterback. I still do. I thought he was the best quarterback the Eagles had, but I knew he was starting to get old. Andy Reid is a very good, very smart coach, so I understood why he thought it was time to look to the future. I still do. Trading McNabb might have been a good move even if Kevin Kolb had been healthy and starting all season. It looks like a BRILLIANT move now, solely because Michael Vick turned out to be much better than expected. That said, I don't think McNabb is completely washed up. I think he could definitely be a productive starter for another 2+ years. He just had the misfortune to play for a coach who has turned into a raging egomaniac (maybe he always was one and I just didn't know) who has mishandled EVERY big decision this year. Mike Shanahan has been so determined to prove his manhood and his power that he has turned every decision into an unnecessary battle. If he didn't like Albert Haynsworth, Shanahan should have just said, "You're not worth the trouble, Albert, I'm cutting you," and everyone would have understood. Instead, he's been playing mind games with Albert all season. If Shanahan had told McNabb early in the season, "I'm really sorry, Donovan, you've been a great player, but you're just not the right fit for my offense," people would have understood. Instead, Shanahan has jerked around McNabb unforgivably. I used to admire Shanahan as a coach, but this year, he seems like Eric Cartman, always snarling "Respect my authori-TAH!" The Eagles were probably right to trade McNabb, but I still think he can come back and have a few more good years.
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#32
12-23-2010, 09:25 AM
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Agreed on Shanahan.
McNabb should have a bunch of offers next year (provided he's not held hostage in Washington) to play the "Kurt Warner in NY" role babysitting a first round rookie QB. San Fran and Arizona would be top contenders for his services, IMO.
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