Gah! Sage Rat, that was me above, not Left Hand. (Though I feel I’ve fairly represented his feelings on the woo-wooness of UUers as well.)
I’ve never been to either, so I was just going by the recommendations. Mentally I’ll add a “nay”-vote to UU though.
I’ve dated a couple Christians, and I’d say they have more of a problem with me not believing than I do with their believing.
To me if it makes them happy to believe in God, so be it, I won’t stand in their way and I really don’t want to try and talk them out of it. But they both couldn’t resist jabbing at me and pressuring me to get more into church.
Okay. They do lose their appeal after a while.
That’s placing a very high value on critical thinking- especially considering relationships aren’t always based on critical thinking.
For one thing, it’s what my wife wants and I love my wife. For another thing, I do want my kids to be educated about Christianity and the Bible. I think preventing them from any exposure at all to religion makes kids more vulnerable to predatory stripes of evangelism later on. I think that going to a Catholic school and being bored stiff at mass helps to demystify Christianity in general and makes them more resistant to prostelytization. The less you know about a religion, the more alluring it can seem. I’d prefer my kids to be jaded . 
I also have the compromise deal with my wife that I mentioned earlier. When they’re older I can expose them to “higher criticism,” skepticsm, critical thinking, historical questions about the bible, etc. What my wife calls “all my atheist bullshit.” She gets them when they’re little, I get them when they’re big. I don’t want to make them athests, necessarily, what’s important to me is to teach them to really think about what they believe and that they have the right to believe whatever they want.
Plus, Catholic school didn’t take with me, so I think they can survive the indoctrination. My oldest daughter is already exhibiting a very suspicious, skeptical, “show me” personality just like my own, even though I’ve been very careful not to undermine what her mother has taught her yet. I find that encouraging.
I am a devout Catholic and my wife was a devout Methodist when we got engaged. I didn’t have any problem with that difference, though I don’t think I could have married someone who was not some sort of Christian-- purely because I feel strongly about passing my religious beliefs on to my kids. I didn’t want a spouse who wouldn’t be able to participate in that. Minor disagreements or differening intrepretations wouldn’t have been a big deal, as long as we could agree on the basic things we wanted to teach our children. (Take children out of the picture somehow, and I don’t think I would have had any problem marrying someone of any religious or non-religious stripe. It wasn’t a factor when I was dating casually.)
It so happened that my wife felt even more strongly about it than I did. It was very important to her that she and her spouse belong to the same Christian denomination, so as not to make her children feel like they had to choose one parent over the other. Well, to be frank, converting from Catholicism would have been a dealbreaker for me. That’s who I am, it’s important to me, and I’m not changing it for anybody, even someone I loved and wanted to marry. She felt a lot more flexible. She spent some time reading and learning about Catholicism, and finally decided that she wanted to join the RCC. That was kind of a delicate situation for me-- I wanted to marry her of course, but I didn’t want to pressure or manipulate her into something she didn’t want to do. But she’s a pretty headstrong person; she made it clear that it was ultimately her choice and she wasn’t going to do anything she didn’t feel comfortable with, even if it meant deciding not to get married. And she wasn’t going to change if being able to marry me was the only reason.
So here we are, married and both Catholics. It’s turned out to be a really great fit for her, and she’s just as excited about raising our future kids in the Church as I am.
It’s not all smooth sailing though. She’s adamant about teaching our kids that the Rolling Stones are better than the Beatles, even though I’ve made it clear that I’ll disown any child who doesn’t worship the Beatles above all.
I dated a Christian (I’m athiest).
What it simply boiled down to was that she believed “not accepting Jesus as savior” = “will go to Hell”.
She couldn’t reconcile loving someone who she believed was condemned to burn for eternity, and I couldn’t reconcile loving someone who assumed that and refused to question any other viewpoints since that wouldn’t be “having faith”.
Sweet, nice girl, but no chance of it ever working out.
I am an agnostic, but I strongly dislike organized religion. I suspect I would have been completely incompatible with any devout woman. I am sure I could have made an exception for UU.
When it comes to raising kids, I would not want my kids going for religious [del]indoctrination[/del] school. I am not even comfortable that my son is in the Cub Scouts. He starts Little League soon, which is as close to, organized religion as I get.
I am sharing my life with my wife; it would be tough if she were religious. She is a lapsed Jew and I am a recovering Roman Catholic. I decided to leave the church when I was only eight. My wife did not leave her faith; she just drifted away from it.
As far as Scientology, I do not see a huge difference between Scientology, LDS and Roman Catholics. They all appear to be successful cults. 2000 years just gives the Catholics the most legitimacy.
Jim
But you know, when they are older, it might be too late for rational arguments. This is pretty much why religion is so succesful. I dont think there is much risk that your kids, with their intellectual background, would pick up some serious form of superstition later. But when they are young, well, they learn to believe what adults tell them. And if the beliefs are carved deep enough, it might be impossible for the them to shake it later, however many rational thoughts they are exposed too.
I’m in a relationship with a religious girl as well in the moment, and like you, I find it doesn’t cause much trouble. But if she want me to let her pass her indoctrination on to our kids while they are young and vulnerable, without me being allowed to tell them my point of view, that would be a very serious problem.
Again, I mean no disrespect to you, I understand this is a sensitive issue.
Why is the arrangement that she gets the kids for herself, belief-wise? This arrangement is equivalent to them not being allowed to be taught about religion at all. The compromise is them going to a non-religious school, but with many religious people, and you both being allowed to tell them about your beliefs.
In real life, unless one parent is absent, both parents get to contribute to the children’s moral education. And in real life, it’s not the conscious decisions (such as “Let’s send them to a Catholic school”) that matter: it’s what they pick up unconsciously from watching how the parents, and everyone else around them, behave. So, whatever the agrement, Diogenes’ children will be learning from Diogenes from day one.
“Everyone else around them” is pretty much going to be religious kids and teachers. And sure they might pick moral values up from Diogenes, but that wouldn’t stop the force of early indoctrination. They might get good values, but they will still risk being irretrievable irrational.
I call myself an atheist.
I believe that most (perhaps all) holy books were written by ordinary people trying to make sense of a confusing world. I believe we should live to be happy, and to make others happy. I find it inpossible to deny the existence of some sort of ultimate consciousness that could be called ‘God’, but on balance I can’t believe in such a thing. I’m sure there are plenty of religious people of every faith who have thought along very similar lines but have come to the opposite conclusion, and I think it would be fascinating to have a relationship with someone like that. Fundamentalists who unquestioningly believe in every word of their precious book - not so much, but then I’m sure most people of faith feel the same way.
I’m an atheist; she’s a (not terribly devout) Christian. It’s a nonissue for her, but a niggling problem for me. I just can’t really bring myself to respect it.
You are not in school until you are 5 or 6 years old, and even then you only spend a part of your life at school. There’s the rest of the family, friends, neighbours and the neighbours’ children (unless you are extremely protective or isolated).
Er, that should read “I find it impossible to deny** the possibility of **the existence of some sort of ultimate consciousness that could be called ‘God’…”
It helps that my wife stresses ethical values over dogmatic beliefs. Even though she sometimes frames things in language which is (to my ears) naive about “what God wants” or “How Jesus wants you to behave,” the actual values that she stresses are the ethical teachings of Jesus (Tolerance, forgiveness, charity, social responsibility, egalitarianism, compassion, non-judgement – all stuff I agree with) rather than getting hung up on specific belief or doctrine. I kno she gets the dogma at school but I feel pretty confident that we will have more influence in that regard than the Church does. One thing my wife does not tell our kids is that they MUST believe in Christian doctrine or that people who believe other things are immoral or wicked or hellbound.
On a stealth level, I can also work to teach them some critical thinking skills, how to question what they’re told, evaluate evidence, understand what constitutes knowledge vs. belief, etc. without necessarily connecting the dots to religion. If they have the critical skills, they’ll be able to do that themselves.
Other than that, what Giles says is true. Marriage is about compromise and this is how we’ve compromised on our kids. Baptism was important to her (I tried to talk her out of it) and the community of a Church is important to her.
I think that if she was rigidly dogmatic or intolerant about what she taught them, I’d have a much bigger problem with it. I won’t say I never have uncomfortable moments, but I’m confident that my kids will be able to think for themselves when they become adults. If they decide to remain Christians, I’ll be ok with that. I really do feel like it’s their decision to make and not mine. I’ll certainly make sure they’re informed about it, but I’ll never try to tell them what to believe. I think an indoctrination against theistic belief would be just as poisonous in its way as indoctrination in a religion. Their minds belong to them, not to me. My job is to give them information and thinking tools. The rest is up to them.
I was married for 13 years to a very kind Christian man who came from a family of devout Christians. The fundamental differences in belief were not necessary to discuss on a daily basis, but my husband made it very clear that he felt strongly that one day “I would see the Truth and be Saved.” Not really a problem, but daily interactions with him, his family, and his peers were very frustrating for me.
Their religious beliefs (to me) reflected a pattern of superstition that frequently got in the way of decisions, actions, and attitudes. If a baby was stillborn, God needed an angel. If a baby was born healthy due mom’s attentive diet and exercise regimen, God was given credit. God was responsible for giving people cancer, and for taking it away. God was given credit for the success of crops, and also for the failure of crops. Any radical weather pattern was indicative of “The Signs”. I watched cousin Patty die of cancer at 33 after refusing chemo because she felt she was being rightfully punished for abusing drugs and sex in her teen years. She left two children behind. I watched my in-laws pray for divine intervention instead of seeking medical help when my young brother in law developed a drug addiction. I watched 3 generations of parents in this family threaten young children and teenagers with the devil and Hell for talking back, for having premarital sex, for being gay; for staying out past curfew. God gave the maternal grandfather an addiction to alcohol, and God cured the paternal grandfather from his addiction to alcohol. Uncle’s frequent affairs were blamed on the devil, but his illegitimate children were gifts from God. The contradictions were astounding, and limitless. Any and every unknown question was answered with “God.” No encyclopedia, no world wide web, no educational programming, no modern medicine would ever be consulted for important decisions, or for trivial questions. I saw a lifetime of purposeful ignorance and a deliberate avoidance of knowledge about science, medicine, and statistics.
Without a doubt the same members of the family found comfort in worship and prayer and the promise of Eternal Reward and there is no harm in that. The family is huge and widespread, own tons of land as well as lay claim to a famous country music pedigree, and is quite successful even though most of them have only a minimal college education. But the willful ignorance of modern knowledge and the willful neglect of personal accountability was (and is) impossible for me to live with. I love them still, and respect them for their success and loving relationships. I would take a bullet for any of them. But I would not entrust any of them to make informed, responsible decisions about… well, about anything.
More me than him, I think. He doesn’t question my atheism, and says he’s not especially worried about the state of my soul (still not sure how to interpret that), and that basically, when it comes to his faith, it’s between him and God. He doesn’t go to church, and he views his faith as something personal, not dependent on religion.
We’ve had some very long discussions. Mostly me questioning and him explaining. And while I’m no closer to believing, I accept that they’re his reasons, and they constitute proof enough for him to believe. It still bothers me sometimes, but I don’t think it’s possible to persuade someone to change their beliefs. I think it’s something they have to come to on their own, and nagging at it doesn’t hasten that along; if anything it causes them to dig their heels in even deeper.
You will have more influence, but noone is telling her not to believe in the dogma. The school on the other hand insists vehemently on it. Even if your wife doesn’t tell them that they MUST believe, she still says that its true, and thats most probably enough to ascertain belief.
What do you get? That you can talk with them about evaluating evidence not regarding religion? Thats not a compromise.
Im sure they will be able to think for themselves. What they will probably not be able to is to discard the religious mindset, no matter how many rational arguments there is against it. That’s what we’ve seen happening to so many other otherwise rational people.
Did you just agree that indoctrination in a religion is poisonous? Then why are you subjecting your children to it in school.
My wife doesn’t say it’s “true,” she says it’s what she believes, but that nobody knows for sure.
As for the school, I’m not worried about it. Almost every atheist I’ve interacted with has come from some kind of religious background, often much more severe, authoritarian and moralistic than what my kids are going to get from Catholic school. Catholic school is not a philosophical death sentence
The compromise is that I can be as critical of religion as I want when they’re older (like in high school). Teaching general critical thinking skills is just a preamble, and frankly, I don’t feel like I need to justify my own marital arrangements regarding my own children to anybody else. If the compromise is acceptable to my wife and I (and it is), then the compromise is acceptable, period.
I think it also needs to be emphasized that they are my wife’s kids too, not just mine. I was resistant to the idea of “churching” them at all at first. It wouldn’t have been my first choice, but such is marriage. If I ever really think my kids are going off the rails and becoming fanatical or intolerant or anything, I’ll put a stop to it. Actually, my wife would probably put a stop to it before I would.
I had the same background and then some. I went to Catholic schools during the week and Baptist sunday schools on sundays. How did I manage to discard my religious mindset? I didn’t even have an atheist parent to talk to.
If it’s done in such a way as to foster the idea that dissent is unacceptable. My kids are being taught that they’re allowed to disagree. Maybe that’s not even technically indoctrination.