18 yr old daughter changing for the worse? (Long)

It’s funny how NRI’s (non resident Indians) and whatever you call expatriate Pakistanis are often even more “traditional” than the people back home. I mean, there are arranged marriages in my family back home, too, but the girls are encouraged to get their educations first, and have a job even after marriage, even if it is a relatively low-stress job like interior decorator. But here, the parents feel like they are losing touch with their culture and so push their kids even harder.

I was a big nine days’s wonder when I rejected arranged marriage and insisted on the man I am still with, fifteen years later, but a few years after all of that hubbub, a friend of mine married a black man and then divorced him three years later. You would think someone set fire to their panties, with the gossip!

I of course know what rishta is, my sister. Your second para alternately made me smile and brought tears to my eyes. My dad accepts my SO, and slowly, slowly, my family is accepting him - my dad came up this weekend, and my mother’s cousin, who he is staying with, sent two pronti (flatbreads) for me and two for him. This is the same woman who pushed my other half away from my mother’s cremation casket, even though Dad had asked him to stand close by. Things are changing but so slowly.
My family in India all know about him and no longer push rishta on me. I’m not sure how that happened! Fifteen years together certainly helps of course.

But mom? Mom will never be able to change now, and we’ll never have a chance to fix it.

Quite. Its something I see a lot of, and given that it was my grandparents who first moved from India to East Africa, and then from East Africa to the UK, I sometimes feel like we’re even more entrenched. But it is changing, slowly.

Just gossip?? In my family that would (still) have got you disowned!

Well, not everyone else would. :wink:

That will certainly help! I think my family in Pakistan know about my SO now too (mum getting a sherwani for him probably helped. :wink: ), so there’s a lot less pressure and pushing of rishta. Things do change. Just incredibly slowly. In a way, we shouldn’t be so surprised at how slowly things change – you and I were brought up at the intersection of the two cultures, and had to learn to navigate the two. Our parents were thrust into an alien culture; it is, of course, harder for them to adjust…

[hijack]I just want to comment how lovely it is to see an Indian girl call a Pakistani girl “my sister.” You two make me very happy. :)[/hijack]

Awww, thanks! Here in the States we are, or at least I feel it. When I first was brought here at age 4, we lived outside of Detroit, and there were mostly Muslims and very few Hindus, so most of our really close friends were Muslim. I got stuff for Eid, and I went to masjid, and sat with my friends while they did namaz (I didn’t do it) - I also went to mandir and did my Hindu stuff but I grew up not feeling very different, really. It wasn’t until I was a teen that I realized how different people thought we were, and on the Interwebs it’s a constant struggle. Just look at any Bollywood song posted on youbtube - the comment section will inevitably descend into a Hindu-Muslim fight. We’re 7,000 miles from home. Anyone who speaks the same language and wears the same clothes and eats the same food can’t be that different, I don’t care what people say.

As to the fifteen years…well, funny, if awkward story. After my mom’s cousin pushed my SO away from the casket, and my dad and aunt both told him to go back, we went to have lunch at my dad’s house. My cousin, who clearly saw our discomfiture, did me the favor of asking loudly how long we’d been together. When I answered “Thirteen years” as was the case then, (has it really been almost two years since mom died?) you could visibly see the atmosphere in the room change. Everyone relaxed and my mom’s cousin personally put food in my SO’s plate. That was her apology, I guess.

I was a mite offended. I mean, what did they think, i was going to bring the boyfriend of the week to my mother’s wake? :smack: :smiley:

(Next spring we will have been together fifteen years. My, how the time does fly!)

This is nothing more than growing up, and it’s about high time. It actually starts years before age 18, more like around 13 or 14. Young people prefer the company of their peers. It’s not something you can fight.

I would feel the same way in your shoes, Anaamika. The differences between life in India and Pakistan must be dwarfed by the differences you both experience coming here! I don’t know that I would ever have had the courage to do it in your shoes, although I gather in both your places that your families brought you. Still, an amazingly brave thing to immigrate to so different a culture.

FWIW … I don’t find NOT having a driver’s license at 18 to be all that strange. I was nearly 21 and almost married when I got mine - not because I wasn’t “allowed” to, but because we simply couldn’t afford it. Teenagers will shoot your insurance through the roof! And while yes, there are countless teenagers out there who are good drivers, we can all name teenagers that ended up dead because someone put car keys in their impulsive little hands too early as well. The driving age legally may be 16 or 17 but that doesn’t mean someone SHOULD drive at that age, no more than someone SHOULD get married at 16 or 17 just because they legally can.

OP, your heart is in the right place, but you do need to relax. Have some faith in her (she’s given you no reason to NOT trust her so far) and have some faith in yourself as a parent! You’ve done a good job, let her prove it!

You’re gonna want grandbabies one of these days, y’know :slight_smile:

Heck, anyone who speaks a different language and wears different clothes and eats different food isn’t all that different, truth be told.

No, but it is often easier to be close to Americans or Canadians or anyone - they don’t have that shared history of four wars.

Oy!, when I was brought here, on the plane out of London my mother said that my eyes just got all huge and shocked. She asked me why and I said "Look at all the ghosts! " (white people)

I was pretty overwhelmed, to say the least.

I can only imagine. Amazing. Still, you seem to have recovered. :smiley:

Not so sure about that…

There’s nothing to suggest this girl hasn’t been brought up well, just that she’s been a bit overprotected. Yeah, like that’s uncommon.

Beyond dating the 25 year old, nothing in the OP sounds bad.

I do tend to wonder about 25-dating-18 mainly because at that age, there’s a HELL of a lot of difference, maturity-wise, in those 7 years. She’s still a child in some ways, he’s presumably off on his own. She hasn’t been to college (or has just begin), he’s finished up.

Most 25 year olds aren’t wealthy, unless they come from family money, that is. They’re early in their careers, maybe still have student loan debt to pay off, etc. And giving expensive gifts to a girl he barely knows sounds a bit odd.

All that said - you’ll drive her away if you forbid the relationship. Include him, get to know him, then (if you really need to) counsel her once you’ve had a chance to form an informed opinion.

(spoken as the mom of a 17 year old boy and 14 year old girl. neither of whom has dated anything yet, so consider that when weighing my opinion ;)).

Well in my opinion, if I was raised like that, I would not think my parents did a good job. I would think they thought they were excellent parents but in reality were horribly misguided and set me up for all sorts of problems down the road.

We’re not that different at all. And I’m proud to call you sister too. I was raised Muslim, but I’ve been to Diwali and Navrati events, played dandia and garbi (heck, we do it in our celebrations too). There’s really not much difference! :slight_smile:

Yeah, I remember when my mom decided that obviously, since I wanted to go out with my friends (at 15/16), that they were “those kind” and I was only going to get into trouble. Strict, early curfew, always wanting to know exactly where we would be and what we would be doing (this was way before cellphones or I’m sure I’d have been calling home regularly).

I’d been the classic nerd honor student - shy and bookish and totally involved with school. I didn’t really have any friends to do anything with, but a new school and situation changed that. Rather than being happy for me, that I’d actually started acting like a normal kid, my mom became incredibly overprotective and controlling.

It had never been a problem before because I’d never tried to have friends before.

“Oh, I trust you, honey, I just don’t trust them.” No, Mom, that isn’t trusting me. Trusting me means believing that I’ll make the right decisions, even if you’re not standing over my shoulder.

I’d been goody-two-shoes my whole life. It only took a few months of this nonsense to decide that if I was going to be treated like a criminal, I might as well act like one.

I eventually got over it and became a normal citizen by my mid-twenties. But it took another quarter-century before I was willing to rebuild a relationship with my mother.

So good luck with that, Frans_L3. Keep on with your good work and I won’t be surprised to see you back here in less than a year whining about how your horrible daughter has abandoned you.

And we’ll be here to say it wasn’t her - it was you.

Seriously. My parents used to follow me in the car. Once, they followed me and I went to the library. Another time, to the Indian store. A third time, to an Indian female friend’s house. :rolleyes: Find anything exciting out, Dad?

I, too, was a straight A student and a complete goody-two-shoes. I listened to them, I obeyed them. I cut my hair to the length she wanted. I wore the clothes, spoke the language, followed the religion. I had the additional problem, however, of the anger and rage and frustration coming from finding out, at age fourteen, that I was adopted. But instead of dealing with this in any constructive way I was expected to bury it and hide it, and so sometimes it came out.

I, too, felt like I was being treated like a criminal. I remember when I was seventeen my parents found a letter on my computer that I had written to a boy. It was a boy who was going to the college I had planned to go to, and I was just asking him about the college, what it was like, etc. A perfectly friendly letter, and he was only about two years older than me, Punjabi, and a nice boy. And my parents flipped out and I was grounded for weeks and the computer was taken away from me.

When I think back of how much of the "fun’ aspect of my teen years I missed my heart breaks. No parties that the parents weren’t at, ever. No prom. No dating, no even hanging out with a mixed group of boys and girls. No late night movies. No dinners out with friends. Had to be in by 9 pm every day, and I had to have reasons and justifications for everything I did - so if I wanted to go to an Indian friend’s house from 6 to 7 pm I had to call at 7 to say I was leaving. I know everyone thinks fun is not necessary and “building character” is far more important, so on that note - what character was being built? not allowed to handle my own money. Not allowed to get a job. Not allowed to have a checkbook, or taught to use one, or taught to use money in any way.

Everyone thought i was so conscientious to take extra classes in the summer but the truth is I did it to get away from them and their smothering. All those years where I should have been having fun, the last responsibility-free chance you get, while all of my friends were having a good time, and I was stuck trying, and succeeding, to being the good girl, and never getting any trust or any reward from it.

The only outlet I had was dance, and I used to dance an hour or more a day. Everyone admired me for this dedication, but I did it because I was desperately unhappy and dance was the only way I had to let it out.

The way I went crazy was with credit card debt. Being denied for so long and not being taught responsibility made me go crazy. In my late twenties and early thirties I finally paid it all off.

Frans_L3 -

Another thing to consider is that, if this guy is a bad guy (namely either abusive or generally up to no good) then everything you are doing will push her further under his control and if something terrible happens, she won’t feel like she can come to you about it, because she’ll feel like it’s her fault for not listening.

Invite him over, get to know him, make it (gently) clear that you are a close family, that you trust your daughter and she is able to come to you with anything - the only way to show that is by not being judgemental.

OMG. You are the Hindu version of me. This is exactly how I was expected to behave/treated, and exactly how I went crazy. Although, I was able to have a job during the summer, the money I earned was deposited into a checking account, in my name, that I wasn’t allowed to touch. I got complete hell thrown at me because I dared to withdraw £20 from my checking account, of money that I’d earned, to buy a book.

As for the OP…

What are your expectations for your daughter regarding marriage?

If you are hoping she has a joyful family life of her own one day, you are doing her a disservice.

You are teaching her to be dependent. What do dependent women attract? Controlling men. What do controlling men do? They beat women, they abuse their children, and sometimes they kill. Men with problems in their heads specifically look out for women who do not now how to live on their own. And women who do not know how to live on their own seek out men who seem like they will take care of them. Sometimes they end up being truly sweet guys. But a lot of times, the “man who takes such good care of me” that such women are attracted to- men who happily make all the decisions, who keep everything on a tight leash, who always seem to be in control- have evil in their hearts that makes them need to dominate women. And these women, who have never known anything but dependence, don’t know how to protect themselves and their children.

You need to teach her to stand on her own. You need to let her learn about relationships, to learn the difference between a good relationship and a bad one, and you can’t learn that by proxy. If she marries the first guy she is allowed to spend time with, how is she going to judge if he is kind or not? She needs to go into relationships on equal footing, or she will get in trouble. She’s already got some lost time to make up for.

If Canada is anything like America, it will become more difficult for your daughter to enter positive relationships if she goes too long without having ever dated. It’s fine to wait until marriage to have sex, or whatever. But men here do not want to be a 25 year old’s first boyfriend. It’s too much pressure and too strange. They want someone who can relate to them as equals in a relationship with a pretty even power balance.

For that sake of that alone, please be more open to her exploring. It’s a lot better for her to date a bad guy, break up, and never do that again that it is to marry a bad guy and have a pile of kids with him.