I don’t know what you are saying. When people say they are colorblind it makes no sense. I see a person with dark skin and I know how many others will see them, and ignore it because I see individuals not members of some artificial group. I’m not genderblind, I see the difference between men and women, and I see that makes no difference on the job since I don’t work at Hooters. I don’t care what your sexual orientation is, the only sex I’m concerned with is the sex I’m having and the sex certain porn starlets are having.
I’m getting paid to get a job done and where I have to interact with others it’s based on their ability to contribute to getting that job done. I couldn’t care in the least what kind of identity they think they have. I don’t think this is that difficult at all for people who don’t actually harbor prejudice. If you’re a guy who thinks men are superior to women but you’ll act the like there’s no difference in the workplace then I can see where you’d have a problem. If you think the color of a person’s skin makes them different than people with your own skin color but you won’t say so in public then I can see where you’d have a problem. If you recognize that any biases you have are irrational and unfairly categorizing people then it’s pretty easy to put those things aside and treat everyone the same. At least it has worked for me, if it’s not working for anyone else then I’m sorry you have to carry that burden.
I’m not entirely sure I buy this. As one extreme, I have worked in several workplaces where male employees liked to make off-color and sexual jokes to each other. I’m certain we would not advise them to treat the female employees like the males (rather, we would prefer they start treating other men the way we want them to treat the women).
But, more commonly, I could imagine touching the arm or shoulder of a male coworker to get his attention or for emphasis. I would never do that with a woman. I might comment on a male coworker’s attire, but never with a woman. I would have no problem asking a male coworker about his relationships or family, but I would never do that with a woman. (I have also experience a fair amount of “making fun” workplace humor, although I do often see it directed at female colleagues on an equal basis. It doesn’t seem to be taken as well). These aren’t really “consent” issues, but I think that I might treat the Rock at my workplace in ways that would be problematic if he were a female.
Colorblindness means treating people the same regardless of their race. I’d like to think I do that as well, but I’ve been told that it is impossible, and if I insist it’s not, then that’s just my privilege talking. Maybe, the debate has made me think about it anyway.
As for men and women, I’m actually fairly militantly feminist in that I’m not treating women differently in any circumstances than I treat men and that sometimes gets me in trouble, which tells me I’m probably doing it right. Not work trouble, but just general social trouble, like “why didn’t you hold that door open?” or “Never ask a woman her age”. I ask men their age, so I’m asking women their age.
The solution to these problems is quite simple, stop listening to the segregationists. I don’t treat people the same regardless of ‘race’ because I know that ‘race’ is an artificial concept intended to divide people and justify inequality. Here’s a simple test to see if someone is really racist, ask them about a person they know with a skin color different than theirs. Describe that person in any way you like but don’t provide their name or their skin color. If they don’t have any idea who you are talking about until you say something like “And he’s black” then you’ll see that they really view that person as first belonging to another ‘race’ before all other things.
Perhaps YOU don’t treat people the same. If I saw a man or woman with a heavy box of printer paper, if they are appearing to struggle with it, I offer my help. I’m not carrying a big box of printer paper simply because it’s a woman!
I pay for my own lunch when I go to lunch during the work day. I assume others pay for their own. Why would I pay for a female co-workers lunch? It’s not a date, is it?
I say the same things in the office, whether or not there are men or women around. It’s easy when you don’t make crude, or sexual jokes in the workplace.
There are many “socially awkward” people in the world who don’t read the cues very skilfully, who aren’t jerks. Oh wait a minute. Such people are now jerks by definition, aren’t they. Just ask RitterSport, that’s what he seems to think.
He’s not alone. This society, and even this very allegedly progressive Board, are full of people who make no distinction between the merely socially awkward (all males, of course, right?) and outright rapists, and rains contempt and hatred upon them all alike. Like this:
RitterSport is absolutely correct, though, that this thread won’t solve, let alone re-solve, anything.
On this very board, we’ve had TWO females now who have written that they consider it rape (their word, not mine) if a male so much as tries to shake hands with them. Since they haven’t posted in this thread, I won’t name them.
So what is Cartooniverse supposed to do when there are females in the workplace (not in itself a problem) who are like that ? Now that’s a problem. You’ve made him damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t. Just who are the dangerous wild animals here? Oh wait. So males who feel it’s safest to simply avoid interacting with females are dangerous animals now? Geez, how much more dangerous do you think they’d be if they did interact with females?
Didn’t we have someone in one of these recent threads who got accused of… something … because he jostled someone while carrying something up a narrow staircase? That wasn’t a male accusing a male. That was a female who needed to be treated differently. What should he have done? Backed down the staircase like a driver who encounters an opposing vehicle while driving up a narrow mountain road?
Enough awful examples, from this thread alone. So much contempt and hatred.
Upon review: I see there’s a lot more in this thread now than when I started writing this, and it’s just getting worse and worse.
There’s no real way to judge if this is correct just based on the fact that the ones expressing confusion about consent are invariably men.
Consent is only an issue for men. Men are expected - by both men and women - to be the primary initiators. And even if women do initiate without consent, the likelihood of them facing any consequence is minuscule. As a result, the consent under discussion is going to invariably be the woman’s. Generally, any person will have more confusion about someone else’s consent than about their own.
But in some theoretical world where women had to assess men’s consent as frequently as men have to assess women’s, it’s quite possible that they would express just as much confusion, or perhaps more.
I’ve got bad news for you. You’re not supposed to make off-color or sexual jokes in the workplace regardless of who you’re with. That’s all part of a hostile work environment. Other men may be offended anyway (out of principle, religious differences, whatever), and creating an environment where women are treated that differently is pretty hostile anyway. And, the subjects you avoid with women that you don’t avoid with men are bizarre – it’s fine to ask a woman how it’s going, I heard you moved in with your boyfriend, is it going OK?, nice outfit, are you meeting a client today. By treating women differently than men, you could still get in trouble, or at least you should.
I’ve said this before, but women are not some alien species looking to trap you and get you fired. I’m sure I treat men and women differently here (I’ll offer to carry something for a woman that I wouldn’t for a man, let women enter the elevator first, etc.), but if there are topics that I would avoid when talking to a woman, I should avoid them when talking to men as well.
People get asked their age in various circumstances. No, not in the workplace. “How old are you?” is a null question to most men. It’s a very loaded question to most women.
I myself dislike that question. I’ve never been asked it in the workplace, but I’ve been frequently asked in work-social situations about the age-range of my kids, which is kind of a proxy for that same info (especially since I got married and had my first kids at a relatively young age).
Of late, I’ve taken to shaving a few years off my oldest daughter’s age.
In general, it’s true, but #notallcluelesspeople. I remember in college a woman who was pretty universally loathed in our social group. She claimed to be an empath, and on one memorable outing, she kept touching this dude in our group (Yoyo Phil was his name). He kept saying, “Stop touching me!” Like those exact words, not anything subtle or indirect. She giggled and said, “I’m an empath, I can tell you’re enjoying it,” and continued.
Later, of course, she hit on me, in a pretty unsubtle way (asked me to walk her back to her dorm room, where took off her pants, climbed into bed, and invited me to join her), but when I played dumb, she didn’t escalate, so maybe she’d learned her lesson.
Oh, women can be very confused about consent. Men are just less likely to consider it threatening. Has anyone here ever refused a woman’s advances and had her say you were obviously gay? Ever had a woman in a relationship with you where she was doing something to you, you didn’t like it, told her to stop, and she wouldn’t stop until you physically stopped her? At which point you’re the bad guy?
And we’re not even getting into what people do when they are intoxicated. Had to be locked in this hug with a drunk woman’s hands on my ass at a bowling alley for like a minute.
I’m not sure I would say this is true. You’re talking just about mistakes from genuine ignorance here, but even when there’s no malice involved that doesn’t necessarily mean that someone’s open to being talked away from that position of ignorance. Sometimes ignorance isn’t merely a matter of missing out on some important information which can be provided, but the result of a total lack of comprehension of ability to empathise with someone else’ situation. And beyond that, they simply may not care enough to change.
Sometimes official sanctions are an appropriate response to poor or inconsiderate behaviour, even if it’s not rooted in purposeful prickishness. I don’t think getting rid of them as an option would make these kind of things “pretty easy to navigate”, unfortunately.
