What is the appropriateness of commenting on someone’s appearance who has a public facing job?
If a receptionist is wearing something unattractive and slovenly, is it wrong to point that out, regardless of gender?
If a receptionist is looking exceptionally sharp, is it wrong to point that out, regardless of gender?
Beyond receptionist, you have lawyers meeting with and representing clients, you have executives having meetings with other executives, and so on.
Appearance matters. And when it matters, is it wrong to point it out?
For instance, I have employees who tend to wear yoga pants. I don’t really care what they wear in the back. But, if I am having them up interacting with clients, I would rather they wear something a bit less revealing. Is it wrong for me to make commentary on their appearance and dress?
Is there a dress code? Does the dress code prohibit yoga pants? If so, then it’s easy. If not, write a dress code and have your employees follow it. Comments on the appropriateness of dress in accordance with the dress code are not the same as comments on the clothes themselves.
Right, and again, talk about it all you want. But I think you were confusing consent issues between dates and offices, and IMO that’s a frequent but silly conflation, so I pointed it out. If I was too flippant, I apologize.
I was going to jump in to say something similar. When I have worked in managerial positions, the companies had very casual dress policies, even for customer facing employees. I would frequently compliment employees on their outfits as a way of letting them know they were conveying the image I wanted to portray.
The problem with putting too many strictures on employee interaction is that if someone is intent on harassment they can make the most innocuous action harassing. They can harass someone by saying “ Good Morning” — because repetition, facial expression and tone of voice are everything. So if
And some jobs and careers are relationship oriented, relying on a good amount of social interaction to keep the wheels of business turning. If someone is going to give you a large amount of money for a good or service they have to feel they can trust you. They can’t trust you if they don’t know you. For them to get to know you you both have to open up a bit. And compliments are a good way to get that process started.
It’s important to have a sense of the normal range of human boundaries with regards to both professional and personal life, to respect those boundaries and to make your boundaries known and defend them if needed. Communicate. If someone’s behavior makes you uncomfortable, say so.
But I believe that some social bonding is healthy in the workplace. And if your workplace is socially bonded everyone knows who the creepers are and you can mount a united effort against them. It’s important not to let your personal feelings about other employees inform your professional behavior but it can be done.
But I think it’s unhealthy to ban normal reasonable social interactions in the workplace.
You think it’s absolutely vital to compliment a woman or man on their blouse/shirt in order for a business to succeed?
I have coworkers that I chat with everyday. Not once have I ever mentioned anything about what they are wearing. If I want to compliment someone at work, I will compliment the work they are doing. Since, you know, we are at work.
No, not absolutely vital but I think normal social interaction is healthy and I don’t think compliments are inherently harassment. Even compliments on appearances.
I was at a meeting last night and someone complimented my sweater. I didn’t think much of it at the time,but remembered it when I read this thread. But if I thought anything at the time I thought. “Steven likes my sweater.” And if had had been in a situation where I felt uncomfortable because I thought I was underdressed ( or overdressed ) compared to everyone else at the meeting, it would have made me feel more comfortable.
But I think I’m going to give up. Because I reread what I posted and if what you took away from that was “she thinks it’s absolutely vital to compliment a man/woman or their shirt or blouse in order to succeed”, I’m wasting my time.
I don’t think they are inherently harassment either. But some people do, and some people use these compliments as a way to harass others. So to be safe, it’s best not to say anything about someone’s appearance. Doesn’t seem like such an insurmountable burden to me.
I don’t think clothing is a strictly forbidden topic. Men do get comments on their clothing. It’s just that in my world we’re usually in drab consultant suits and women’s outfits tend to be more varied and commentable. A man’s accent pieces (i.e. a non-drab necktie) may get noticed. I recently got a new pair of oxblood shoes that I wear with my shiny blue suit on Fridays, and they got comments the first few times. My new glasses were complimented. We had a guy show up in seersucker last summer, which was very noticed and discussed.
The middle-aged women who were stopping me in airports to tell me “honey, that suit makes you look good, mm hmm,” maybe not the best plan for the office.
Recently toward women:
I asked a coworker what the pattern on her dress was called (Moroccan lattice), which led to an eye-glazing conversation about which stores are selling what styles, whoops. Or “That color works well…do you like red? I do too but I probably shouldn’t get a red suit.” “May I see your ring? That’s so cool. What, your husband is taking gemcutting classes? I didn’t know that was a thing!”
I think most people know how not to be creepy. If you don’t, then I guess building a bunch of overly-restrictive rules may be your best bet, but I don’t think most people are in that boat.
Everything is simple if we make unrealistically oversimplified assumptions. The problem is, a whole lot of sexual activity occurs in the grey area where one or both people are impaired to varying degrees but not necessarily past the ability to consent.
This has no real relevance to work place situations where it’s reasonable to just say don’t drink at work. But in purely social situations it depends on defining one tricky concept ‘voluntarily intoxicated past the ability to consent’ in order to address another ‘what need consent consist of in purely social situations’.
But that short circuits your whole thread, if you’re just talking touching which isn’t sexual. The correct answer there would have been ‘affirmative consent requirements are an extreme form of PC which isn’t relevant to the great majority of the population which doesn’t accept that concept, therefore not relevant to my [iiiiandyii’s] attempt to map out a common sense solution’.
Back to your pre-short circuit OP, I agree this is not complicated at work. Basically in today’s world at work, don’t touch people except to shake hands or push them out of the way of an oncoming truck or something (infamous thread here about handshakes being sexual assaults on women at work aside, that was ridiculous). You might touch in certain other innocent ways, but it’s better not to.
In purely social situations without alcohol or drugs, likewise it’s pretty simple. In the real world where voluntary consumption of alcohol and drugs often plays a significant role in social sexual settings, there just isn’t a simple rule, and the concept of consent can in fact be obscure and confusing. That doesn’t mean anything goes once a woman drinks or takes drugs, not remotely. It just means there aren’t simple rules where one or both parties are somewhat impaired, it involves judgement calls and matters of degree. And that’s a lot of relevant cases.
Not really. That’s fairly dated. The reason it has been a loaded question is that women used to have a “use by” date stamped on their foreheads by men. That is fading to a certain extent.
I’m in my early sixties and have never in my life felt that my age was a loaded question. I don’t know anyone now for whom it’s a loaded question and can barely remember ever knowing anyone like that. I’m sure it’s true in some circles but be assured that it probably isn’t “most women”.
Unless you’re checking to if see someone’s jailbait. In which case, other problems.
You are probably right about women not understanding consent in reverse – that is, men being asked by women and the women not understanding a refusal. Women can be stalkers too. But that was not what I was referring to.
I was referring to the confusion, as evidenced by endless discussion of same by men, about women’s consent.
Many men seem to be genuinely bewildered that their harassment of women was *always *unwanted, always creepy, always endured rather than enjoyed. They seem to not understand that a sick fake smile, cringing away, and avoiding being alone with them were indeed signs that it wasn’t enjoyed. At least, that’s what they say, and they say it a lot.
There seems, as well, to be a general desire to evade the emotional work of gauging women’s reactions by simply making a lot of rules. Well, we are social primates who use touch to communicate all sorts of things – sexual interest, comfort, friendliness, display of power, aggression – and the same touch can communicate a wide variety of things.
Perhaps some of this is just another example of how men are so much more poorly equipped with social skills, whether by nature or culture. So many times women shout, “this is so incredibly obvious only a fucking moron wouldn’t understand!!!” And yet, men keep saying they don’t understand. Because it is indeed fucking obvious to a woman, it’s hard to keep giving men the benefit of the doubt, if you see what I’m saying.
Now, whether it has historically been well-rewarded and indeed the subject of smug mockery (of women by men) to have no idea of what women want, need, or are even asking for in actual words, is another little worm can.
And by the way, it is possible the reason most of the scandals have been old nasty dudes is that most cases were ongoing over many years. Many of the men involved started practicing when they were young and unrepellent looking. Like Trump for example. Being raped by a young hot dude is surprisingly like being raped by anyone else.