I think there are some people who just can’t imagine having their primary emotional relationship be with a member of the opposite sex. Marriage/long term relationships are about sex, forming an economic unit, co-parenting. Women are as prone to this as men: I know plenty of women who melt at a compliment from a man, who love to flirt and date and be chased, who eventually marry and have children with someone, but who never seem to quite take a man seriously: they’d never talk to a man about anything important. That’s what moms and sisters and girlfriends are for. Men can be the same way.
And then there are people who don’t seem to form any kind of close relationship with anyone. I have more trouble with those people because I don’t understand how they work.
I think it was a stupid thing to say. I mean, how exactly is someone supposed to be nice if they don’t even talk to you. Many girls have done this to me and I never considered it “nice.” (even if I did deserve it.)
Anyways, I don’t see the problem with rating your most desired qualities as being attractive and nice. Personally, those would probably be my top two as well.
You’ve succinctly stated something that bugs me a bit on the board and sometimes IRL.
I’ve often seen people patting themselves on the back for their intelligence as if they didn’t win the intelligence lottery just like the George Clooney/Natalie Portmans of the world hit the attractive lottery. Sure you can do things (as you mentioned) to try to educate yourself but if it isn’t there. The same thing with physical attractiveness and how all of us can all take steps to make ourselves more attractive but we have to work with what we were given.
It’s always so bewildering (and if I’m honest, more than a little amusing) to me when I see people bragging about their intelligence when they’re not capable of seeing how little they had to do with achieving it.
Anyway, sorry for the hijack but your excellent post brought it out.
I have to wonder if this was some sort of backwards defense mechanism from the guy- that if he wanted a deep intellectual connection it might imply to himself that he was compensating for some other shortcoming. Ok that doesnt make sense but this guy sounds like he’s as sharp as a bowling ball, so I figure he naturally must be using equally dense reasoning here.
I know some dumb people think that a guy they consider an ‘alpha’ will always zero in on the most attractive woman, and so the ‘betas’ are left to focus on other traits in a woman (ie personality). By that logic, if you value their personality, you’re somehow ‘settling’ :rolleyes:
I guess he just didn’t want to fork over the money for one of those life-like sex dolls. As long as his looks hold out he may be able to keep his money. The one thing that gives me any pause over the situation is his use of “nice”. Did he mean he prefers someone with kindness and heart over intelligence? It’s been my experience that a kind and loving heart trumps all else. Cruel intelligence is cold comfort. I doubt that’s what he meant though and would be willing to wager he gets by on his looks but I could be wrong. That shoe mileage thing stops me from being certain.
That and he could be sooooooo pretty that maybe you misunderstood and really he is a great guy and if you give him ten more chances you could live happily ever after. Maybe eleven.
IIRC, you’re quite highly educated and successful in real life. I don’t recall where I heard it, but there is an old saying out there that beautiful women want to be told their smart and smart women want to be told their beautiful. Now, I think that’s a load of crap; however, perhaps in his own, stunted, ham-fisted way he was trying to give you a complement. i.e. ‘I know you’re super-smart, Sugar-Tits, but I dig you because you’re super foxy too!’ kind of thing.
There are also men out there who want to use their woman as a foil. I knew a guy like this who was clear that he wanted a really hot, really stupid wife who would look good but keep her mouth shut. There had been some recent news about the heritability of intelligence and the likelihood that intelligence was passed through the female parent* and I was positively gleeful making him outraged when I told him that and told him how stupid his children - even his MALE children - would be if he followed through with his plan.
He might just be a jackass.
*I have heard nothing about this since so it’s totally possible that it was junk science.
Agreed. It’s the sort of thing you don’t say to someone’s face even if it’s true.
Bad sign, to put it mildly. A man who doesn’t care about a woman’s intelligence is normally looking just for sex not companionship; even if her actually marries her I don’t he’ll really be committed to her emotionally. As I recall according to studies on the subject, a man who is looking for a long term serious relationship normally wants a woman who is roughly as intelligent as he is.
I haven’t ruled out this theory. Sexist men tend to reduce women to their bodies, and he could have been assuming that I assess my own value in exactly the same way he assesses it. Meaning, he assumes that I want to be wanted mainly for my looks, and might actually feel insecure if a guy said he wanted a woman who brings more than that to the table. This would explain why he’d express his preference so freely and seemed taken aback when I voiced offense.
Why in the hell he would make this assumption, beats the hell out of me though. I mean, on our first date I talked about rabies pathophysiology. And he was wholly engaged in the conversation too. it wasn’t like I was just sitting there, twirling my hair, fishing for compliments on my shoes or something.
I actually asked him to define what he meant by nice.
He thought about it for a while and then he answered something like “she doesn’t nag me or argue with me too much.”
Basically, “nice” in his world means someone who is laid back enough that they will accept him as he is. Valuing compassion, charity, and a generous spirit over IQ has little to do with it.
He actually does value intelligence, by the way. He calls himself smart all the time. (He isn’t dumb, but he ain’t no genius.)
You can do a lot to increase any definable level of intelligence. Can you change someone in the lower 1/3 to the upper? Probably not. But there’s a lot that can be done.
The same is true of “physical” attractiveness. Hollywood has skillz that can make an average person look spectactular, and even aside from that, there are average looking meat sacks that when animated by the right person, look amazing.
Conversely, I’ve seen plenty of “hotties” that once I’d seen their body language and heard them speak that I find revolting. We can certainly alter what we find attractive, but in every one of the above cases, you have to make concerted effort.
I think guys are generally more willing to forgive character/intellect/personality flaws in favor of looks. Some guys I’ve known actually *prefer *to date down in terms of intelligence, either because they’re intimidated by intelligent girls, or take it as a personal affront when their girlfriend is smarter than they are. Not all guys think this, of course. Maybe not even a majority. But enough that I’ve noticed it. It’s like a macho, alpha-male thing. They must make more money than their partner, they must be smarter, they must be funnier. Otherwise, what does she need *him *for? And I think guys like to be needed.
I can’t say my experience is statistically significant, of course, but there it is. I personally would never date a guy who couldn’t keep up with me intellectually. I wouldn’t mind dating a guy who’s significantly smarter than me, but dumbness is a huge fuckin’ turnoff. A combination of high intelligence and compassion are more important to me than anything else in a relationship.
While it might not express the opinions of dopers his stated preferences re intellectual attributes in women vs niceness are in line with the baseline preferences of a sizeable number of men, many of them perfectly reasonable individuals. If most men had to choose between “nice” and “smart” in a woman they would have a serious relationship with most would (IMO) probably choose “nice” over “smart”, and in many cases this is a perfectly rational choice as their chances of having a successful relationship with a nice woman is probably somewhat greater than having one with a smart woman.
On multiple levels smart women tend to be a handful and while some men relish that type of relationship, others find it exhausting and annoying. Intelligent women are sometimes surprised when a successful and intelligent single man they would consider up to their standard chooses a women who is pleasant, but not all that obviously bright.
It comes as shock to some women that not all men, even intellectually gifted ones, want a woman they can engage in ontological debates. While superior intelligence (or general cleverness) in a male is strongly attractive to women as long as the man is not otherwise socially dysfunctional, it’s not something men, even smart ones, are necessarily looking for in women. Female intelligence, while admirable is largely irrelevant to fecundity which is what men are wired to be attracted to. One the other hand male intelligence is usually strongly correlated with professional success, and the ability to be a provider which is what women are oriented to be attracted to. Yes it’s a Mars and Venus trope, but it’s also true.
Having said all this, there is also a sizeable cohort of men for whom female intelligence is an attractive trait. Most of the time this is seen in men who are enjoy repartee, and who value what intellectually agile women can being to the table in a relationship.
I think the comparison is pretty apt. Sure, if you’re dumber than a box of rocks, you can’t Learning Annex your way into brilliance, or if you’re uglier than sin, you can’t Sephora your way into being a knock out. But if you weren’t born super smart, staying informed and making a conscious effort to think critically can help. Similarly, if you’re just okay looking, staying in shape, dressing well and having a magnetic personality can go a long way. You know why you don’t see any ugly people who are fit, dress well, have nice hair and skin? Because they’re called good looking people by that point, even if the canvas underneath that they were born with isn’t anything worth bragging about.
So anyway, I’ve been told a few times by men that all they care about in a woman is that she’s pretty and nice, delivered with varying degrees of sexism. I’ve heard this sentiment expressed by men who said so with the subtext of “A woman’s primary value is her appearance,” and also said by men who seemed happy-go-lucky enough not to have a lot of demands out of women, or anyone, really. The statement doesn’t necessarily offend me. It depends on who’s saying it and how it’s being said. In the context of the OP, though, dude just sounds like a douche. To say you don’t even want companionship from your girlfriend is just asinine.
First attraction (and maybe attraction in general) is mostly physical; but, even if you’re only in it for the sex, the actual interaction is a lot nicer with a smart girl (even if it’s just a one night thing).
Not this man. That’s so completely dehumanising and unrelated to how I interact with women that I can’t empathise with it in the slightest. I mean, I like the physical attributes of women well enough, but to not care about the ones in your life as thinking beings with an intellectual life at all? To get all your emotional/intellectual fulfilment from your guy friends? That’s infantile.
astro (and others), like I said before, this isn’t just about intelligence. The title says “intelligence, etc.” because I’m referring to everything about a woman other than her physical attractiveness and niceness.
Sense of humor, ambition, religious beliefs, politics, personal values, spending habits, conversation skills…none of this matters to him, so he says. If he said he doesn’t particularly care about his woman being smart, it wouldn’t have phased me. It’s the attitude that he doesn’t even care enough about women to be curious about them beyond physical appearance.
As a counterpoint, imagine a woman saying “A man’s intelligence etc. is irrelevant to me. He doesn’t even need to talk to me. All that matters is that he has money and is nice.” I can’t imagine these words coming out of my mouth during a date.
I actually think there are a surprising number of people (men and women) who don’t value nice, either. If there’s any truth at all to the “nice guys” thing, it’s that people don’t prioritize nice one way or another, not that they actively seek out jerks. Honestly, both a nice idiot and an intelligent jerk are going to lead to misery in the end.
I think there’s also different kinds of intelligence, too. My wife has a lot of emotional intelligence; in fact she’s the most emotionally intelligent person I know. This means that if someone is lying to her, she’s smart enough to pick it up in her body language. She never gets scammed or taken advantage of. When someone needs her help or support she can see it a mile away and she’s very proactive about anticipating problems and planning stuff in advance. She planned 99% of our wedding because she could anticipate what we needed/what order to get it done/how much she was going to spend.
Of course I love her, but I could imagine some guys might not be comfortable with a woman who has really clear boundaries, will see you lying a mile away, remind you if you are disrepecting her, help and support you in ways you may not realize, etc. This is because arguments with this type of person have the potential to leave the other person feeling stupid and frustrated for not remembering every detail, feeling bad about being unconsciously selfish toward her, and never getting a leg up in an arguement.
I used to consider myself ‘smart’ but I realized that my smarts (“book smart”/“trivia smart”) arent particularly useful when it comes to interacting with people. Hers are. But I think for some guys, this is really intimidating, because they won’t get away with anything in the relationship- these type of women will call them out on it.They won’t forget something meanspirited the guy said/did and if there’s a dispute about what happened their memory will be the more reliable of the two. For a less emotionally intelligent woman, a guy might get more of a pass because she might accapt annoying/inappriate things more readily, he wont have to put as much thought into everything he says and does, and can feel superior in knowing more than her.
