I thought that the 50s and 60s were OVER. That’s basically the same message that I got when I was a girl, growing up. “Smile at the boys, never let them see you frown”, “be pleasant to the boys”, “always let the boys win”, “never show that you’re smarter than a boy”, and “you can’t act like a boy if you want boys to like you”. In other words, men (and boys) get to look out for themselves in relationships, and expect to be first. But a woman or girl has to put the man first, and herself second. If she wants something, it’s secondary to what he wants.
No one’s saying you have to do it, they’re only recommending it as a way to (on average) attract more men. Actually that’s kind of the difference between now and the 50s/60s, the advice probably hasn’t changed very much, just the compulsion.
I think for both genders, a good personality – someone who is fun to be with and doesn’t have any major hang-ups – makes someone more attractive, certainly for longer-term relationships.
The main difference is the effect of a “bad” personality. For men, we can still be attracted to a woman that personality-wise we don’t like or are meh about. I think with women, a bad personality (let’s say a whiny, pathetic guy*) can destroy attraction single-handedly.
- …to sidestep the “jerk” thing which is undoubtably a “bad” personality trait but can make a man more desirable to some women.
I think this is more a sign of extreme immaturity (and hormones and possibly just loneliness) than anything else. Or he could just be a jerk.
This would make sense if “nice” and “smart” were mutually exclusive, but that just isn’t consistently true in real life.
I understand where you guys are coming from, and I agree. An ugly person can be well dressed and in shape and take good care of their skin and hair. That person will then be considered “attractive”. But, if a person says, “A person’s looks are irrelevant to me”, that person doesn’t really mean they want a person who isn’t in shape or well dressed. That person usually means being “genetically freaking pretty or handsome” isn’t important.
Same with “A female’s intelligence is irrelevant to me”. I don’t think that means, “A person who keeps herself well informed and struggles to improve her critical thinking skills”. Come on. The person is saying that actual, inborn intelligence doesn’t matter to them. And I think that is fine to say. Now if someone said, “A person’s character doesn’t matter to me”, *then *I would think that person is pretty messed up.
I’m just trying to defend that part of the guys statement, because I understand it. I can’t defend the rest of the stuff, because the guy is just ridiculous. But I have actually dated someone who was dumb, and I just didn’t care. He was trying to be informed…it was backfiring wildly. His idea of staying informed was “researching” the stupidest ideas that come out of the afrocentric movement and doubling down on it…reading the authors that agreed with him and then reading the authors who disagreed in order to talk about how wrong they were. It was a mess. It was like when Tori Spelling got all of that plastic surgery, but was still unable to get that unfortunate jawline under control. He just didn’t hit the brains lottery and Tori just didn’t hit the pretty lottery. Not for her lack of trying. I feel ok to say that because for one, she is a celebrity, so they offer up their image for sale, and therefore judgment. And secondly, I feel fine to say it because I haven’t won any lotteries either.
I don’t share the OP’s former date’s viewpoint, as lack of intelligent dialog or even a woman suppressing her intelligence is a dealbreaker in my book.
Just need to put it out there, though: He has every right to desire that quality in a mate, and the OP had every right to break it off.
Nice is a pretty bland word, so I would switch it out with kindness and shared values. Is intelligence mutually exclusive to kindness? Not at all, they’re probably even highly correlated.
But it takes a lot of effort to get out and meet people and I’m firmly dedicated to not being too picky - giving people a chance. I would personally prefer to be with a woman who shares my important values and is kind and generous AND as intelligent as I am, but I’d happily settle for someone of average intelligence.
Even though I like intelligent women, I wouldn’t go the reverse. I wouldn’t be with someone who was really smart if she was selfish or mean to people.
So overall I’d say intelligence is a plus but not extremely important.
And for the record I think **you with the face’s **date sounds really creepy.
Story told before:
A famous singer had recently OD’d; this was the subject of talks during the coffee meeting* when the receptionist declared that “well, all musicians are druggies, everybody knows that.” Several people answered “not all, and even those who use aren’t all as hard on it as that one was.” “Oh yes, every single one, they’re all junkies!”
The EHS manager, who had by then managed to grab his breath and his brain back from where they’d jumped (and who used to be a professional musician) said “every single musician? What, classical music ones? Traditional music ones? The guys in the pit at La Scala?” “Yes of course, every single one!” “Anybody who is or has ever been a musician?” “Yes, every one!” “You realize you’re calling ME a junkie?” “Well, it’s not my fault that you guys all pop pills like candy, you know!”
He was saved from a 25y sentence by the factory manager grabbing the receptionist and shoving her out of the room while the rest of us stood between him and the door…
Recounting this incident later, one of the guys present was her bf. Somebody asked him “how can you stand being with her? If that gal’s IQ was the temperature of this room we’d be freezing!”
“shrug Eh, she’s ok in bed, and she’s so dumb she doesn’t complain if I spend all weekend on the Play or one hour groping some other girl in front of her, so whatever.”
“Dude, if your children are dumber than doorknobs don’t come complaining to us, you’re the one putting it in that keyhole.”
Thankfully, he’s one of only a handful of guys I’ve met who were like that, and the other ones were so repulsive in many other respects I was surprised any of them managed to get married, yet they had. Do you think Nat Geo might run a documentary on that?
- Not held in every Spanish factory, but common in many; every office worker takes mid-morning coffee at the same time and in the same room, thus providing a nice opportunity for everything from reviewing Production Orders for the next three days to decrying the latest footie results.
I don’t know about “most men”, but for me low intelligence would be a total turn-off. One of the things that attracted me to my wife was that if I said something stupid, she would challenge me on it. I still think that, mathematics aside, she is probably more intelligent than me. She sees many things more deeply than I do.
When I see a beautiful woman, of course I am attracted. But if it turns out she is also a particle physicist (think Lisa Randall), it really excites me.
As a hetero male, I definitely want an intelligent woman.
But I’d rather have a nice airhead than a bitch genius.
I’m not arguing against the OP’s date’s statement that pretty and nice are good enough. I’m saying I agree that comparing looks and smarts, in terms of stuff you either get through the genetic lottery or not, seems fair enough to me. Each of these are qualities that you’re born with through luck alone, and there’s not much you can do to change this, though there are things you can do that may help. You will never go from dummy to Einstein, you will never go from a 1 out of 10 to [insert whatever gorgerous celebrity you fancy here], but you can make some efforts that may be serviceable substitutes for inborn smarts or looks.
In this particular instance, yes, dude’s an asshat. A need for only pretty and nice is not necessarily sexist, but this guy seems to be a misogynist as he says things like: I don’t need a connection with a woman, or even for her to speak. That’s what my bros are for. smashes beer can on his forehead" Wtf?
Ah. I see now. We agree; I just got confused somewhere.
So astro, let me get this straight. Every woman who wants her LTM male partner to value more than solely her looks is just angry at the world?
Men like the one in the OP don’t want nice, they want docile. They don’t want someone who will be kind to them, the want someone they don’t have to be kind to. In a long-term relationship, there’s nothing healthy about that.
Bahhh…
There IS a difference between wanting someone that doesn’t bitch at me constantly and wanting someone who doesn’t bitch at me constantly AND I can be an ass to and get away with it.
Physically attractive and nice are perfectly good set of qualifications for a romantic partner.
Is having a fat wallet and being nice a perfectly good set too? Just wondering.
Luckily, I married a woman who is not only smarter than I am, but better looking too. I’ll grant you the last one sets a low bar, but she is gorgeous.
Let’s not forget a pleasing voice and laugh.
There are otherwise fine or at least acceptable specimens of human who are so deficient in the above categories, that it is hard to comprehend anyone living with them for more than a few minutes.
The ability to sneeze without emitting a Hiroshima-like explosion is also underrated.
I know some women who would love hearing it. I know some men that feel that way too. I certaiinly understand why most women would be offended by it though, and I certainly don’t feel that way.