A few question for Omnivores . . .

Great Debates
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I have talked with people about the eating dogs bit before and some folks are really squeamish about it. But to me it has always seemed a pretty smary way to go about getting supper.

As a dear hunter I can honestly say that if there were a deer that came when I whistled and snapped my fingers I would have had a lot more venison over they years. As most tales of dog eating revolve around the Orient, perhaps this is why so many Asian eateries deliver? Just a cultural acclimation to food coming to you rather than the other way around.

As an aside, but probably not GQ topic worthy: What is the legality of dog eating in the US? Is it a state to state deal? Can I buy dog meat? Can I buy live dog for meat? Having never dressed a dog out I would be hesitant to do the slaughtering myself, but i would love to try dog. I think cuteness and flavor go hand in hand for me. I find fish ugly, and don’t like the taste, I think rabbits and ducks are really too cute and they are so tasty! I hear horse is delicious and I certainly love the equine specis, that leaves only two major animal geoups that I think are super cute: Dogs and Cats. “Rover, it’s whats for dinner.”

222

HAHA.

I’m not too sure about legality, but I know it’s a cultural thing here, usually brought with them from where they lived previously. Most people of the same ethnicity as them, but who have been born and raised here, have the same idea about it: “yuk!”

223

Hmm, the big difference between eating a herbivore (like a cow, horse or deer) and a carnivore (like a dog or cat) is that the herbivores are used to storing large quantities of fat to see them through winters when plant food may be sparse. Carnivores, on the other hand, have to stay relatively lean so they can chase down and kill the herbivores. Of course, you could fatten up your dog as a prelude to a luau, but it wouldn’t exactly be an exciting hunt worthy of song.

Of course, you could emulate Marlon Brando in Mutiny on the Bounty and subsist on a diet of scenery-chewing.

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zen101 - very good points. I agree, and I think it’s awesome that you’ve made your choices only after seriously thinking about them.

Urban sprawl is a huge problem, I agree. But, personally, I would put deforestation of the rainforest a notch above it, on as far as importance. We know so very little about these tropical rainforests, and so very little about the life that lives within them. As we all know, from the little (1% I believe read somewhere) of the rainforest we’ve actually explored, we founds hundred of news species of animals, and many new plants, some of which we’ve since used to create various medecines. It just seems unbelievably silly to destroy something we know so very little about.

Many people (not necessarily you, just many people I’ve come into contact with) believe that vegetarians and vegans are just overprivledged saps. This may or may not be true. Personally, I come from very, very humble beginnings.

I have compared, with my friends, monthly grocery costs. Even though I consistently buy more food then them, my bill is generally much lower. This is somewhat biased, though, as I cook my own meals all but one or two days a month. Granted, you can’t just run to a fast food joint, or a restaurant usually, and grab a simple vegan meal. That’s a problem which is keeping many people from reducing the amount of meat in their diet.

It makes me happy that you “don’t eat poop,” and stay away from the other foods that you mentioned. May I ask why it is that you don’t drink soda? Or eat at McDonalds? Or refrain from eating poo?

You say that a “well financed and well informed” person can live happily as a vegan. Too true. I already shared my opinon about the monetary factor. Now, the “well-informed” factor is somewhat of a paradox. So few people out there are even aware that it’s possible to eat a vegan-style diet and live a happy, healthy life. I’m sure, at one time or another, every person who eats meat sits back and thinks “damn, this used to be cow . . .” If we were able to act upon that feeling, or if there wasn’t so much misinformation telling up that we need to eat meat, many more people would act upon their gut instincts. But, we are essentially forced to repress our true feelings.

Many other vegan and vegetarians that I know are also fairly misinformed about their lifestyle choice, which is somewhat dangerous. In order to make such a big decision, one really needs to educate themselves. It’s not difficult, by any means, being a strict vegan. But it is important to know what you’re doing.

I sincerely believe that if more people knew that veganism was an option, about the undeniable negative environmental and health effects of eating meat and dairy, more pople would change their diet.

It made me laugh when you mentioned the stoked-up hippies sighning petitions and " are too stoned to make it to the polls come “Super Tuesday.” I know that image all too well, and it definitely puts a dark shadow over vegetarianism and veganism being taken seriously. I am firmly anti-drugs, and anti-alcohol. I have been since long before I became vegetarian, before I even know what a “vegan” was. But, any group has a bunch of morons that makes the rest of the group look bad. I’ve just learned to live with it, and dispell the stoner-vegetarian by setting (in my opinon) a good example.

It’s also true that a lot of people “sign up” when they are vulnerable first year’s in college. It’s also true that it can be difficult to gain lots of mass, on a vegan diet. But, it’s not inherently difficult, nor is it impossible. Somewhere else on this thread I may or may not have mentioned a list of vegetarian and vegan world-class athletes. There are a whole heck of a lot of them, from all different corners of the “sporting world.” So, if they can do it, other people can, as well.

But, like I said, it all comes down to education. If you read a good and proper vegan nutrition book, written by honest-to-goodness doctors, they will tell you how to bulk up, if that’s what you want to do. They’ll tell you good ways to make sure you’re getting all of the nutrients you need. Yes, vegans are skinnier than your average person. Is that a bad thing? I can really see no disadvantages to being skinny. Let it be known that I am nowhere near skinny. I’m on the high side of average, for being a 25-year old male. Why? I don’t know. Because I don’t exercise enough, I assume. But still, at 170 pounds, last time I went to the doctor, my cholesterol level? 140.

One last note, about availability. I live in a small town (15,000 people) in Northern Japan. There’s nothing around here. The nearest “health food store” is two hours away, and almost every product in there has fish in it. (It’s a macrobiotic store, and macrobiotic does not necessarily mean vegetarian.) But, I’m fine. I get vitamin supplements from the internet, and produce from the local grocery stores. I don’t understand why this is difficult. Sure, it may be difficult to go to a vitamin store, buy vegetarian supplements, and B-12 supplements. But, what’s so difficult about going to the store, buying some asparagus, broccoli, and spinach, cooking them, and eating them?

Yep. So, thanks for the good posts. It makes me happy to discuss this subject with someone who actually took the time to think about, and read about the food they eat. We eat every day. It is, when it comes down to it, one of th most (if not the most) voluntary things we do. It’s such a huge part of our life, and yet so many people don’t think about it, don’t attempt to educate themselves about it, and are too set in their ways to be able to ever change their eating habits. It just makes me sad that so many people are so blind to these important issues.

It just seems counter-intuitive to not put our utmost effort into being as healthy, free of disease, and as compassionate to our environment as possible.

-TGD

225

Well,we have a test subject, then. Dalmuti, try eating meat once a week and see if it has any significant impact on your overall health, i.e. is there a significant health difference between a no-meat and a low-meat diet, assuming you don’t have any allergies or digestive sensitivities that would make meat consumption impossible. Report back in six months with your results. Chop-chop!

226

I’m aware that that nice bloody steak on my plate used to be a cow; in fact, when I order my meat I joke that “I want to stick a fork in it and hear it go ‘mooooo’.” I’m not repressing my true feelings–my true feeling is that:
I feed the green and growing things
That feed the quick and living things
That have fed, and shall feed, me.
Listen: do you hear the wind across the grass?

I’m inclined to believe that people who grew up closer to nature (I grew up on a family farm in very rural Pennsylvania) have a far less sentimental view of things. For instance, I love pigs: they are cute and funny and intelligent. Yet, I eat them with zest. My father was a hunter and fisherman; I’ve eaten fried rabbit and squirrel potpie and lots of pan-fried catfish, not to mention venison. My father actually shot deer from our back porch, and one night my mother counted over a dozen of them in our buckwheat field. If he hadn’t have shot deer, they would have eaten us out of our cash crops (buckwheat and oats), and there are times when starved deer by the side of the road were a common sight, due to under-hunting.

Animals eat plants; some animals eat other animals. I’m an animal, as are all humans. I respect other animals, and wish them no cruelty. I’d rather see a deer shot and butchered than see it starve to death.

You seem to assume that if only people heard ‘the Good Word’ that they would convert to your point of view. Most of us have heard vegan and vegetarian arguments for decades. We’re not ignorant and unthinking.

If all the world did stop eating meat, what becomes of the cows, chickens, pigs, sheep, and goats? They become extinct, as there will be no incentive to breed and maintain them.

Finally, in parts of the West cattle graze on scrubland that will not support a grain crop. I know; I live here; I’ve seen it.

227

MEBuckner: Actually, I’m aware of the reports of possible Anasazi cannabalism, and of studying animal and hominid remains to gain details on their habits. :slight_smile: I was merely responding to Sab-O-Tosh’s insistence that people had lived for several million years without eating meat.

Humans are ‘opportunistic feeders’: they’ll eat whatever they can, whenever they can, unless they have the luxury to pick and choose their food.

228

Maybe your diet is the reason you don’t exercise? One of the major reasons I drink milk is because I think it is good for me, good for my bones, good for growth, etc. And I eat meat (mostly fish) because I feel that it gives me energy and increases muscle mass. I lift weights and run long distance, and I don’t know a vegetarian diet that wouldn’t make this much harder. It seems to me that it is wishful thinking when you say a vegetarian diet provides as much energy and muscular ability as an omnivorous diet, when you have not tested that theory by exercising strenuously.

I mostly agree with your arguments against fast food. I believe that people would be happier without fast food, and soda, and all the unhealthy things that are so popular. But they are just so widespread, so easy, so fast, they become difficult to resist. I think you need to deal with that, rather than just saying all meat is bad. In other words, it is the whole eating philosophy of our society, a philosophy of eating cheap, fast, tasty, unhealthy items, that you need to deal with, perhaps by suggesting that meals be slower, planned, and treated with respect, rather than alienating everyone and passing up the real problem by screaming “meat is murder!”

229

True feelings?? Speak for yourself. I certainly don’t share those “feelings,” and I doubt most people do. Myself, I’m perfectly aware of what my food is, and it doesn’t make any difference (Actually, it’s better that way; I like knowing what my food is. It’s a lot better than eating something I have no clue about).

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Well soda pop, colas, and other sugar fortified drinks are often habit forming (psychologically, and physically in caffenated drinks), and make you feel like you have gotten enough “water” but in fact can deprive your tissues of proper hydration. I became aware of proper hydration when I was much younger and had a heat stroke after a night of binge drinking (of course I didn’t actually DO anything about it until the last few years) The high sugar levels in soda cause increased insulin production which give me a “beer belly” that at 31 I’m finding it difficult to get rid of and also contribute to the high potential of adult onset diabetes which runs in my family. And as bad as they smell, I’d hate to lose a foot.

As for McDonalds or most other fast food places. Since I do much of my own cooking and I am in all honesty a gifted cook with a broad palate the food at many of those places is just bland and tasteless garbage. I do have a weakness for french fried potatoes (in your home referred to as potato fu-ra-ie at macudo donudo), but I now make them at home using organic potatos and beef tallow/vegetable oil. Also the sheer volume of evil that is done to the employees at McDonalds and the like disturbs me. I was very much aware of the horrors of fast food work before reading “Fast Food Nation” and “Resturant Confidential” as I was at one time a manager for a local smaller chain of burger joints. Compared to most we treated and paid our staff well and had standard medical benefits and mostly full time employees, but the number of “minor” injuries such as hot oil burns (actually hot oil probably accounts for 90% of fast food injuries) on teenagers and the thought that no where else are people forced to get burned and smile at customers while getting burned just botherd and bothers me. Also the fact that wage raises are supplemented with praise and inspirational talks about “teamwork” and other crapola made me ashamed to do my job so I quit. After further thought I just no longer felt right in spending my money in an institution that I felt was promoting mistreatment of people.

I refrain from poo eating because I’m not German (note this may be an inside joke depending on where you live. Here in the adult video stores, all the really gross poop and pee videos are in German. So if you want to say someone is into gross stuff you call them German and they usually get it.)

231

Bryan, it’s not just about health. I’m comfortable with where I am. I’m energetic, I feel good, and I’m as healthy as can be. You’re the one who should perform the test. Go get some blood work done. Find out the levels of minerals and cholesterol in your blood. Weight yourself, and check your blood pressure. Eat a healthy vegan diet for even just one week, and then go in for a new round of blood work. See the differences for yourself. I reall don’t need to worry about my health, as far as diet goes. Maybe you don’t either. But, as it’s been proven in my prior cites and references, even eating a little bit of meat riases your risk of just about every possible disease and ailment. If the tests don’t support my claims, I’ll buy you a Whopper.

Nighttime, please show us a good, unbiased cite which claims and cupports that cows milk is “good for us.” Milk is, indeed, not good for your bones, an opinion enbraced and proven by many nutritionists. If you are a woman, it is indeed very not good for your bones, and it’s been shown that drinking milk can actually increses someone’s chances of suffering from osteoperosis. (Osteoperosis has been shown to develop from an excessive intake of protein, rather than a calcium deficiency, as was previously thought.)

Eating fish does not automatically increse your muscle mass. You working out increases your muscle mass. If you ate all tofu products, your muscles would replair themselves (and therefore get bigger) just as well. And with tofu, you wouldn’t be getting any of the cholesterol or high levels of fat.

Do a websearch for “vegan vegetarian athletes” and yo uwill more than likely be able to read about many of the outstanding vegan and vegetarian athletes. Many champion triathletes are vegan, and it’s not just a fluke. Do a little research before you call other people’s statements “wishful thinking.”

Phoenix, yes, I am speaking for myself.

If you’ve ever caught/hunted/raised an animal, killed it, cleaned it, cooked it, and ate it, then I’d agree with you in that you are “perfectly aware of what [your] food is.” Or also, I’d let that slide if you’ve ever visited a slaugterhouse. Any of those true?

And finally, Squish, I’m thoroughly impressed with the anount of animals you’ve eaten. Would my arguments be somehow more believable if I listed every vegetable I’ve ever eaten?

Those suffering cows, pigs, and chickens wouldn’t exist, because there wouldn’t be a need for them to be bred in such huge numbers. Where would they go? Not into a meat grinder, that’s for sure. That’s a good start, at least. The world could do with a lot less farm animals, as that would lead to les animal waste, which would lead to less air and water pollution. Also, less farm animals would lead to less a demand for feed, which means more valuable farm land could be used to grow grains for human consumption, rather than animals consuption. It lso means less demand for grazing space, which means less blazing of forests. The only bad thing that could come from there being less farm animals is that you would have to pay more for your burgers and chicken fingers. That’s all. But we can’t have that, now can we?

Many of the lands in the west are scrubland preciesely because they have been so overgrazed by your walking hamburgers. The west is becomeing less and less arable by the day. Soon, cowboys, too, will be all but extinct, when there’s nothing but desert out there.

And, you like knowing where you food came from? Okay. The last hamburger you ate. Where did it come from? Not the store, or restaurant. Where did the beef come from? What supplier? What state? What country? How many different cows had contributed flesh for that burger? What did those cows eat? Did they have any diseases? What medications were they on? Were they “fallen” when they were cut up, or were they still conscious and flailing about? Apply all of the same questions to the milk you drink.

You have no idea where those animals came from, or anything about them. It’s foolish to claim that you do, or that you even can.

And do you know why you can’t know? Because you’re not supposed to. The industry doesn’t allow for it. Why? Because they know that if people were more informed, more educated, they would make wiser decisions. What does that mean? Less money for the cattlemen. And we can’t have that.

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I suppose I didn’t make my point clear. My point was that people who live closer to nature are less sentimental about it. They’re aware of the balance of nature and the cycle of life. Everything eats everything else.

And you would be happy if they were extinct? Why? I wouldn’t be, and not just because I eat them. I like farm animals; they’re attractive and entertaining and I learn a lot from watching them.

The scrubland I’m referring to is in Central Arizona. It never was arable in any meaningful sense, due to the lack of water and the very thin layer of topsoil. Cattle are grazed there precisely because they can make a meal off the native vegetation, and humans can’t. The Yavapai tribe were, before the influx of the whites, hunter-gatherers.

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Phoenix, this question was addressed to you, though it seems (in my last post) I was addressing it to Squish. Sorry about the mixup.

"And, you like knowing where you food came from? Okay. The last hamburger you ate. Where did it come from? Not the store, or restaurant. Where did the beef come from? What supplier? What state? What country? How many different cows had contributed flesh for that burger? What did those cows eat? Did they have any diseases? What medications were they on? Were they “fallen” when they were cut up, or were they still conscious and flailing about? Apply all of the same questions to the milk you drink.

You have no idea where those animals came from, or anything about them. It’s foolish to claim that you do, or that you even can."

-TGD

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Squish, what does “living closer to nature” mean? I live amidst endless rice fields. Every night in the spring I go to sleep listening to a wonderful chorus of thousands and thousands of frogs. I purposefully coordinate my diet and everyday needs so they require as little death and suffering as possible. I ride my bicycle to work everyday.

Do I not live “close to nature” as well? Isn’t that a highly subjective judgement? How do we rank it? By who owns more animals? Please explain.

Also, you said “And you would be happy if they were extinct? Why? I wouldn’t be, and not just because I eat them. I like farm animals; they’re attractive and entertaining and I learn a lot from watching them.”

Well, yes, it would be much more natural for them to be in much smaller numbers, on our planet. Cows would be far from extinct. (Think: India.) There are still “wild pigs,” and “wild chickens” and “wild sheep.” They’re just, well, wild. They haven’t been domesticated. So, they’re species wound’t just be blinked out of existence.

I’m glad you learn a lot from them. You *could[i/] learn a lot more about cows if you didn’t eat them, though. Just like we could learn a lot more about all of the life in the rainforests, if we weren’t steadily burning it down.

235

Then it’s not much of an argument, is it? You should have said it would be your reasoning, not everyone’s reasoning, because the whole statement comes across as telling everyone else what they should think.

Trout, on a couple occasions, though that was many years ago. I don’t have the money or opportunity to do such right now, so I settle with the pre-killed/cleaned/butchered stuff I get at the store. If I had the opportunity, I might go hunting or the like occasionally so I could skip out on some of the middle work and hold matters more in my own hand. Unlike most people, who would rather distance themselves from the process of bringing meat to the table, I seem to be inclined the other way.

Oh, I see. No longer arguing about our “true feelings”. We’re just stupid and making unwise decisions. Gotcha…

Does including a complete biography of any animals present in a product seem as absurd to you as it does to me? Heaven help you if you buy a hotdog or any other “batch” meat, it’d have to come with a list the size of a metropolitan phone book…

236

I already partially addressed this, but I looked back, and you changed what was said between my post and your two. I did not say “where my food came from,” but “what my food is.” Hamburger is, as we all know, cow meat. We have the FDA and the like to make sure that meat and such are handled properly, and since I don’t have the opportunity to bypass the middle-men at the moment, I trust their judgement for what I don’t know. And if I really felt like it, I could go to the supermarket, find their meat distributors, find what slaughterhouses they deal with, and trace the meat I get back to there. But honestly, I don’t care.

If you’re going to call me foolish, at least do the decency of not claiming I’m saying something that I did not.

PS, in regards to the post after this one, there is a lot more to nature than rice fields and the sound of frogs. A LOT more. And some of it makes your slaughter-house scenes seem pretty tame.

237

Well, hell, if you won’t take my suggestion, why should I take yours?

In truth, I, like many westerners, eat more meat than is strictly necessary, and I could improve my health by greatly reducing that consumption. I just don’t see how elimination would be superior to reduction and why arguing for the latter choice makes me a less moral person. And, actually, if “it’s not just about health”, then what is it about? So far, I see mostly sanctimony, rather than science.

I’ve checked the sites that claim “even eating a little bit of meat riases your risk of just about every possible disease and ailment” and find such claims wanting in evidence and logic.

238

I have a question for you Dalmuti… leaving aside the environmental issues for a moment, and focusing exclusively on the “badness” of killing animals… why is it bad?

Or perhaps I have misunderstood you… if we could wiggle our noses, Samantha-style, and dissappear all the negative side effects of eating meat, would you be ok with it then? If not, can you explain why, in detail (vs, “killing is just bad”)

Thanks.

stoid

239

Bryan, so, the largest scientific study ever conducted, examining the relationship between diet and health, by institutions as reputable as Cornell and Oxford, are “wanting in evidence and logic?”

Well, friend, as I’ve seen before, it’s apples and oranges. I don’t understand how you can go on disregarding and denying the truth. But, hopefully, you’re happy with the way things are. Personally, being healthy, thin, and minimalizing my chances of contracting disease makes me happy. I just want to inform others that there is a very easy, and very efficient way to do these things: choosing a vegan diet. If those things aren’t important to you, then I can understand why you don’t believe/want to believe me, and all of the studies and evidence I’ve presented.

What is it about? It’s about life, a healthy body, and a clean planet. What’s so difficult to understand? I’m not going to keep repeating myself. Reread the thread, and you’ll have your answers.

As for why should you take the “test” if I don’t? If you can’t think of a reason why you should, then you shouldn’t. Don’t do anything you don’t want to, friend, if it doesn’t make you happy.

Phoenix, sorry to misconstue your words. You did say “It’s a lot better than eating something I have no clue about.” Well, I daresay that you don’t have a clue about the beef your eating. Sure, you could know about it, but just because you could doesn’t mean you do.

Also, you still didn’t answer my question about living “close to nature.” Please let me know exactly how we measure it.

Stoid, I can’t tell if you’re trying to be condescending or not. I’ll just assume you’re not. Anyway, good question.

But, the problem is, you can’t just “leave aside” the environmental problems. That’s how the world has gotten into such a rotten state. Everything is connected, through the food web and food chain. It sounds cheesy, but everything from you’re most basic, high school biology textbook to the most advance ecology PhD dissertations assert this fact. And the problem is that most people disregard this proven, obvious fact, for economic reasons.

But, as far as the badness of kiling these animals. Do you have a pet? Can I come over to your house and kick it a few times? Would you mind? Why? There’s your answer. If you don’t have any pets, then answer me this. Why do we have laws against abusing animals? Should we have these laws?

Talking about wiggling our noses and making things disappear isn’t constructive. I’m sorry. Yes I would have less problems with eating cows if cows were plants. Yes, I would be less adamant about my standpoint if there were no environmental repercussions to producing, slaughtering, and eating meat. But, unfortunatley, this is trite, in that none of these hypothetical situations are anywhere near true, or even able to be achieved.

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It’s about life. I wonder whether it’s about life for you, as you have no concerns over the extinction of several species, and you were perfectly willing to torture a living being by malnourishing it.

It’s about a healthy body. Other factors contribute to a healthy body, and veganism isn’t the only way to be healthy.

It’s about a clean planet. In terms of overall impact on native flora and fauna and the complex ecosystems involved, hunting-gathering is the least destructive. Next comes pastoralism, then agriculture, and finally, large areas of human habitation (cities, subdivisions, etc.).

You were perfectly willing to starve a cat to death in the name of your evangelical ideology! As I said, you don’t seem to care about animals at all!

<bangs head against marble desktop repeatedly> Well, it’s not riding a bicycle to work past scenic rice paddies! I meant, living up close and personal and observing closely, so that you learn how nature works; that it’s not always kind and fluffy and Disneyesque. That it can be cruel. That everything eats something else. Yes, even plants consume nutrients from the soil, starving out other plants in the process.

Am I in favor of chemicals given to my meat? No, but I’ve eaten it for the thirty years since I moved to a metropolitan area, and I’m still alive and kicking. My cholesterol level is acceptable. I have very low blood pressure. I have a slipped disk and a smoker’s hack, but those certainly aren’t the result of what I eat.

You opened this thread saying that you were ‘curious.’ It’s obvious to me that you were only looking to proselytize.