A few question for Omnivores . . .

Dalmuti, what I was driving at was an understanding of what you yourself seem not to have examined very closely: the reasons you find killing animals so objectionable, the reasons that have nothing to do with the environment.

Killing an animal is not the same as torturing and abusing it. If I put a bullet in its brain, it has not suffered, it is just dead. Now that it is dead, it is gone. It has no awareness of its dead state, it is not sorry. Nor are its fellow animals. It has ceased to be.

And I will ask you again…why is that a problem for you? Particularly since the animals in question would have had no lives at all if they had not been bred for the specific purpose of dying so that we could eat them.

So, what is the problem with killing animals? The question is NOT:

  1. What is the problem with torturing animals?
  2. What is the problem with killing animals in such an inefficient manner that they end up suffering for significant periods of time.
  3. What is wrong with abusing animals.
  4. What is wrong with the mess and trouble that comes with meat production.

The question is really simple, and I’m asking you to really think and consider in exactly the way you have asked of others: What is the problem with making an animal dead? The animal never feels a thing, it is alive one moment, dead the next. DO YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THIS…AND IF SO, why? Please explain.

stoid

Not a clue? Not even a tiny little one? Like, say, that it comes from a cow?!. Or the fact that, to get to my table, it has to fit certain government-set regulations? These aren’t even the tiniest little clue? Seems to me that I know what my meat came from, and that it meets certain minimum regulations. So yes, I do know what I consider to be important about my meat.

Nice of you to essentially ignore both those last two posts, by the way…

Of course I didn’t answer it, you had addressed the question to someone else, and I had never said anything about living “close to nature” before that. But if your only view of nature is rice patties and the sound of frogs, that’s a pretty small picture of “nature” you’ve got there…

**

Remember I’m pro-meat here so keep my comment in the vein of being helpful. The government regulations affecting meat mean exactly dick in a practical sense. Most processing plants that have government inspectors have fewer than four visual inspectors per plant and process tens of thousands of cattle per week. Some processors (some of the largest in fact) have no government inspectors on site because they do not sell trims of beef to the government from certain plants. See the inspectors are usually only there if that plant ships to prisons, schools, or the military. Sanitation wise you are actually safer getting your hamburger at McDonalds because they have and use greater economic power over beef and chiocken processors to ensure sanitation proceedures. According to some independant observations (not just hippies or hemp fanatics) conditions have not changed much in the way of sanitation since Upton Sinclair wrote “The Jungle” in 1906 or 1909 (can’t remember) and that is one f%$#ed up book about beef production. Seriously, if you eat something you should do more than trust that the government is being honest about how they are protecting you. Remember those people who got sick with eColi a few years back and died? Well there have been no new FDA regulations passed in the past few years that would effect feces contamination of beef (and feces is usually where you get eColi in case you didn’t know). McDonalds and some other fast foor chains have done some things to get hte producers to follow existing rules to help this, but only in plants that produce for McDonalds and their kind of big buying power corporation.

If you buy meat at a smaller chain grocery then you may want to stop eating it rare.

Squish. Let’s see. You said “As I said, you don’t seem to care about animals at all!”

Yes, this is rational. :rolleyes:

I’ll put in the time and effort to actually comment on your remarks and answer your questions when you come up with something intelligent that I haven’t already addressed.

Stoid, you’re obviously setting me up for something, but I’ll try to answer your questions. So. Again, I think it’s terrbily silly to try and disconnect an act of killing an animal from the reason that animals is being killed. Dead animal in a bubble in a void. I don’t get it.

So, I’m sorry, I guess I can’t disconnect the death from the reason. Same situation, would you mind if someone shot your pet? It wouldn’t bother you in the slightest, even if the poor dog/cat/hampster didn’t feel a thing? It simply ceased to live, without any suffering. Is that cool with you?

The best answer I can give is that killing all of these animals is simply unncessary. It simply doesn’t need to be done. As a species, we have created an economic demand for unnecessary death. Sure death is natural. Does it need humans to give it a McBoost? No. Death is efficient, and can fend for itself.

And once the animal is dead, why do you do with the carcass? Ideally, it would be eaten, out of necessity. But in our culter, this is hardly necessary. And no, you can’t tell me that factory farm animals don’t suffer. There are regulations which are supposed to requre all animals to be knocked unconscious before being skinned and carved. But this isn’t always the case. It’s not uncommon for a living. conscious cow to have all of its skin torn off, and have people carving away at its flesh with long, sharp knives. Don’t think it’s true? I can’t help you if you choose ignore the obvious.

Regulations are guidelines, not descriptions of what really happens.

So, answer this for me: Why do you not have a problem with the killing of animals?

Zen101, cheers. It’s so very terrifying that McDonalds has more say in millions of people’s health than the American government.
-TGD

You dismissed the issues, you didn’t address them.

Agriculture is destructive, a fact you continually refuse to address.

But since you will continue to ignore or dismiss any issue that doesn’t fit your agenda, this discussion is pointless. I’ll leave you to it. :rolleyes:

What did I dismiss? What haven’t I already addressed that you want to know more about?

Yes agriculture is destructive. But if it’s done right, it’s much, much less so than raising animals. Even if it’s done wrong. It’s still much more effective than raising livestock. There’s less waste produced, less water used, less space needed, and much, much less energy required. Try growing a garden in your backyard with 10 different vegetables. The next year, try raising a cow in the same backyard. Which worked better? Which produced more food?

Besides, we have to eat. There’s no way around it. So, the most ecologically sustainable way to go about producing food is agriculture. Do you want to abolish agriculture, and eat exclusively cows? I don’t see what you’re getting at.

Again, please enlighten me as to what I’m dismissing. Thanks.

By the by, did you ever answer the questions in the OP? Did you even read all 5 pages of the thread?

-TGD

I’m wondering what you think about when a vet puts a cat or dog to sleep. You’d let it suffer, even if it has arthritis, is 347564 years old, is blind, has a broken back, etc?

Lola, well, thanks for the post. I have to say, though, that your question is fairly loaded. No matter what I say, people will jump all over it. The question is somewhat off topic, and I don’t want to get into a huge discussion about the “ethics of pets,” so I’m just going to answer briefly.

There is a distinct difference, let me point out, between the life of a pet, and the life of a factory farm animal. I’m sure you know that, though, so I won’t go into it. Once of the main differences, I would hope, is love. A pet receives love from its owner, ideally, whereas a cow destined to be a hamburger never receives love in its whole life, not even from its mother. (Not because she doesn’t love the calf, but because beyond the first few hours after the calf’s birth, they are separated, and will never see each other again.)

It’s a tough decision, indeed. I guess it all comes down to a person’s relationship to their pet, and their personal beliefs on suffering, death, and other “big” issues.

It’s obvious from the way you phrased your question that you wouldn’t hesitate to have your pet killed. I think that’s a fine decision. Not the right one, nor the wrong one. It’s your decision, all the way. It’s impossible to label something “right” or “wrong” in that situation, when dealing with the life/death of a loved one, or a loved pet. (This is assuming, of course, that the reason for sending your pet to death is because you genuinely don’t want it to suffer any longer, and not for the reason that it’s just too difficult, emotionally or otherwise, for you to deal with.)

Myself? I’ve never been in that kind of situation, so I can’t say for sure what I’d do, or how I would react.

I’d more than likely allow the animal live out the rest of it’s natural life. But, as I said, I can’t say for sure.

I say that because in that situation, if I had arthritis, or was really old, or blind, or had a broken back, I would, myself, prefer to live, rather than be killed by chemicals. Wouldn’t you?

What about you? I’m interested to hear what other people think about this. Why would you choose to have your pet put to death? Or, if you wouldn’t, why not?

-TGD

“Try growing a garden in your backyard with 10 different vegetables.”

My family does just that. Daily I go on gopher patrol. I have a device that puts poisen bait in gopher runs. I also have traps I place in the gopher homes that kill them, and smoke bombs to sufficate them. I have different kinds of poisons for gophers and squirrils and birds. Die, gopher, die!

I’m not setting you up for anything except a closer examination of your position. I don’t think you’ve thought carefully about it.

I don’t think I disconnected it from the reason at all. The reason is to eat it. You have a problem with this on many levels. What I’m trying to get you to examine is one particular aspect of it (and the one I think drives all the others, but even if not, this particular one is the one that interests me.)

It isn’t the same thing, is it? Do you have a close, loving relationship with all the cows and pigs and chickens? Are you going to miss them when they die? I would be hysterical if someone killed Maggie…but I’m very clear on why: for myself. For my loss, for the empty, horrible void where she used to be. For her? I would feel nothing. Neither would she. She would no longer exist, and would therefore be incapable of having any feelings on the matter.

That’s true. But it’s a lousy answer, and for a man who has insisted that others have not thought carefully enough about the matter, you should be ashamed of such a copout answer! “It’s not necessary” can be said of virtually anything and everything in life! It’s not necessary to have toilets and running water, it’s not necessary to have Disneyland, movies or television, it’s not necessary to have fine restaurants, it’s not necessary to travel, it’s not necessary to have, be, or experience almost anything. If we wish to continue to live, we must eat and shelter ourselves from bad weather. That’s about it. Everything else is luxury. Try again…and this time THINK about why you feel this way. I’m not asking you to change your mind about anything, I’m asking you to * understand what your mind is thinking to begin with. *

And I haven’t. I object to the way farm animals are treated, I contribute to the Humane Farming Association, I eat organic as much as possible, I buy cage-free eggs, and I haven’t eaten veal in 20 years. But I have no problem at all with the fundamental idea of raising and killing animals for food. I believe it can be and must be done better, without cruelty, allowing the animals to live more natural lives, and I think it would uplift our culture to make this an issue and press for it. But I think it is a waste of time and energy to try and turn the planet vegetarian. Won’t happen… the energy is better spent in other ways.

Because I do not view death itself as a horrible thing. [Tyler Durden] On a long enough timeline, everybody’s life expectancy drops to zero.[/Tyler Durden] The planet’s system is a fabulous design: everything gets eaten by somebody else. (Except us). It is normal, natural, and good. Cruelty, torture, pain & suffering are all bad. Death is not.

Exactly. Which is why you should stop comparing pets and farm animals.

I’ve done this 4 times in the last 3 years. And every time it was heartbreaking. But it was the * right * decision, and there is a “right” and a “wrong” decision in these situations, absolutely. The wrong decision is the one that makes the animal suffer needlessly. The right one is the one that is compassionate and loving, and delivers the animal from pain and suffering.

And if you did, you’d be cruel and selfish.

And that is precisely the problem with your whole position, and exactly what I think you are not looking at closely enough. You are identifying with the animals, and projecting your own fear of death on to them. Which is certainly understandable, but if you are going to take up the banner on this and argue it, you need to step back from making it so personal.

The only time that you would “prefer to live” is while actually alive to feel that way, first of all. (And there’s no guarantee that you would, in fact, perfer to live. Many people who are extremely ill, in pain, or incapacitated prefer to die rather than live such a limited life. Perhaps you would never make that choice, but it is wrong of you to assume that your position is everybody’s, including the animal’s). Once you are dead, * there is no “you” to be sorry you are no longer among the living. * (let’s leave religious options aside). This is emphatically true of animals, with the added aspect that they do not understand death while they are alive, so they do not dread it. Animals do a wonderful thing that we can all learn from: they live in the moment. They do not live in tomorrow, they do not understand worry. All they know is how they are feeling * right this moment. * So death does not mean the same thing to them that it does to you. So applying your fear, distress, horror, whatever about it to animals is silly.

And it is that part of your position I think you need to examine. You think death is horrible, obviously. That’s fine. For you, a human being who understands what death is, who has hopes and dreams and plans for the future, that’s perfectly understandable. But you cannot apply the standards of your existence to the life of a pig or a cow. Just as you have dismissed fantastical scenarios as unrealistic, your belief that ** * if you could * ** ask a cow or a pig or a chicken how they felt about dying that they would probably feel the way you do is unrealistic and silly and cannot be logically applied to this whole debate.

As I’ve said, I agree with you about the damage that factory farm methods do to the environment, and the cruelty that it inflicts on animals. I believe in working to change this, and that it should be changed. I think you should focus your efforts on this, and I applaud you for it.

Taking time and effort to try to get everyone to be as creeped out by animal death as you are and becoming a vegetarian behind it? You and Don Quixote…

Good. Lord.

Short answer. I do not fear nor do I hate death. I am food for parasites and (one day) the worms & the beetles. Neither I nor the cattle will live forever, & being food for something isn’t a bad thing. This is the way the world really is, & that’s okay.

And when I learned to accept this & gave up Jainism, I think I became a little happier & a lot more aligned with truth.

Great Dalmutamt- I have already asked twice how you can object to the killing of livestock but kill spiders. You’ve had quite awhile to think it over. I await your answer.

Re-Skinning live anmals
Cite? I find it hard to believe for the simple reason that skinning a dead cow is much easier and quicker than skinning a live cow.

Stoid-Please, let’s not drag the Man Of LeMancha into this.

I can cite this as well as confirm is from bothe firsthand and secondhand experience.

The cite is from a book called “Fast Food Nation” in interviews with beef processor plant workers they mention it as well as in several PETA pamphlets. No lawsuits yet on any allegations made in that very volatile piece of work.

My personal cites are that I come from a beef family. Grandfatehr was a president of Iowa Beef Producers and have been in the plants.

See what happens is the cattle are led in at about a rate of one every 15-30 seconds to a “stunner”. A stunner is a guy with a pneumatic gun that fires a piston about 10" long out one side, it looks like a big pistol or hand drill (some models look like a router but not in our plant) and this think impacts the skull of the cow knocking it out or killing it, it’s mainly important to just “stun” it than kill it. From there the animal is led to the stripper which looks like a drum with hooks on it and the hooks dig into the skin and peel it off (they do the same to workers who slip on shit and blood on the floor). Sometimes the cow isn’t as stunned as other times and will come to, hanging upside down getting it’s skin peeled off. They scream good, but not as good as horses I’m told.

But they still taste great.

Ok, cattle are sometimes skined alive but not on purpose.
Grating Dalmui-I’m still waiting.

I was just about to whine about Dalmuti’s whereabouts myself. He’s been pretty good up to now about keeping up with the conversation, I’m curious as to his response to my last post.

yooooooohoooooooooo…Dalmuuuuuuuuti!

Stoid, well, I think it’s great that you eat organic vegetables and eat free range eggs. I hope you’re a positive role model to those around you, and that you will one day “take the plunge” and commit yourself to vegan lifestyle.

Your argument, on the otherhand, I find uninspiring. First, you said you weren’t setting me up. But it’s quite obvious that you were leading me into your whole “you’re projecting your fear of death onto animals” spiel. Which is well and good. I’ll comment on that in a moment.

Well, no I don’t have a close loving relationship with every animal that’s slaughtered for meat. But I do, however, have an intense love of life itself, and care for every living creature. I feel awful for every singe one of the billions of animals that get killed for meat, every year. I feel bad for animals that get hit by cars, and those that get eaten by other animals. I also feel just terrible for the billion starving people, most of whom are children, on the planet. I feel bad for the homeless, and for the innocent victems of crimes.

See what I’m getting at? As these animals and people die, I feel a continual loss. Every innocent death is a wrong that can’t be undone. Sure, the cow is dead, and s/he doesn’t have many thoughts on the subject. But, don’t you find it sad and appaling that you are part of, and actively give money to, a system that thrives off of and promotes agony and suffering? If that doesn’t bother you, then frankly you’re either a scary person, or in some serious denial.

Death is natural. Go to a slaughterhouse. That’s not natural. There are 1.2 billion overfed people in the world. There are also 1.2 underfed people in the world. This is not natural. People overlooking these facts and going on buying Happy Meals? Not natural.

As for my “it’s unnecessary,” answer, well, you said it yourself. It’s true. Sure, everything is necessary. But don’t you think that unecessary things that promote suffering, waste valuable food when there are billions] underfed, and destory natural resources beyond sustainability are a little worse than (your examples) watching the news, or going out to eat? (At a vegan restaurant, of course.) C’mon, you’re the one who really needs to think about what you’re doing, and not doing, and the effects of your decisions. If you have children, and you buy them hamburgers, you don’t think that there’s anything wierd about feeding death, pain, misery, hormones, poop, and toxins to the people you love most in the world? It’s all about denial.

And sure, the the findamental idea of naturally raising animals for food is great. I would still be a vegan, if that were the case, but I would definietly not be as vocal about it. But, this is just fluffy masterbatory nonsense.

Because, these things terrible really do happen. And they will continue happening until people (you) do something about it. It’s not going to go away on its own. We, as privledged Americans, Brits, Japanese, and whoever else, need to do something about it. And really, there’s only one thing to do: vote with our hard-won money.

Cows are skinned alive, and castrated without pain killers. Chickens have their beaks cut off, without pain killer. Pigs have their tails cut off, without pain killers. These things are reality, Something most people unfortunately don’t care all to much about.

And you know what, in about 100 years, when there’s a gizillion people on the planet, no rainforests, and about 5 square acres of arible land left, people aren’t going to have a choice whether or not to become vegetarian. They won’t have a choice to do anything but starve and die, cursing their grandparents for being so damn greedy and blind.

Lastly, I think identifying with animals is fine. What’s the problem with that? If you think it’s so silly, then you pretty much called yourself an idiot when you talked about your affection for Maggie.

And, my only “angle” isn’t the animal angle. I’ve talked about the environmental and health angles, as well. Those are both well documented problems, though, so most people on the board just dismiss (rather: deny) them, and focus on the really important stuff like my theoretical cat and the fact that I’ve killed spiders.

Yes, my main motivation and my main “reasoning” behind going vegetarian all of those years ago was for health, and because I really loved animals.

My main reason for going vegan, was for environmental reasons. There’s countless people starving in the world, and I just saw some greasy, fat-as-hell man throw out half of a Big Mac because there was too much mustard on it.

He didn’t just throw away a buger. He threw away life! He threw away a cow’s life, a squeare acre of rainforest, and a chance to feed a starving child. That’s so very pathetic, and so very infuriating.

But, as I said, it’s easy to argue against us “animals rights” folk. The real battle is the environmental question. But when you think about it, all of these huge problems have one simple answer: stop eating meat. It’s so, so obvious, and so, so simple. But, people, as we’ve seen on this board, just go apeshit, move beyond rude, and just get downright mean when someone suggests that maybe they haven’t thought about something as quite carefully as they should.

But, anyway, like I said, I think it’s great that you support organic agriculture. You’ve obviously thought things through, and made an intelligent decision. My beef (pun intended) is not with you. My argument is with those who havnen’t thought about these issues, and those who continue to deny the obvious clues.
-TGD

Sure, when I cite a book it’s trite. When a meat-eater cites the same book, it’s accepted. Way to be opened-minded, people.

Oh, and DocCatheter, as for the spider. If killing a spider is the worst thing I’ve done in the past three years, I’m probably good to go in most people’s books. No one’s perfect. You, of all people, should know that.

As for the cows being skinned alive “not on purpose,” well, actually, yes, it is on purpose. It’s purpose is to feed the likes of you a cheap hamburger. Don’t deny it.
-TGD

What, you mean like–you? You consistently sidestep or dodge those issues you can’t deal with. Your OP was misleading. Your proselytizing is not having an effect and your frustration shows.

In terms of environmental impact, the least destruction human lifestyle is hunting-gathering. Next is pastoralism. Then agriculture, then industrialism.

If you’re as heartbroken as you say you are, move into the backcountry and live off the land. That’s the only way you can not have much of an impact on the earth.

I find a slaughterhouse killing animals for food no more sad and appaling than wolfs (Or other predators) killing animals for food.

Wow, um… Thanks for the incredibly (in)accurate prediction of the future.

Because if he threw away a vegetarian burger, it would have been so much better… Or does going vegan suddenly prevent people from being morons? [sub](Not the pit, so I’m not going to say it…)[/sub]

So pick it up and send it to a starving child. Probably won’t be in too good of condition by the time it gets to them, though. And in case you didn’t know, one cow can produce a lot more than a single hamburger, so it’s more like he was throwing away a fraction of a percent of a life. And as for the rainforest bit, I’m going to call “bullshit” and ask for a cite that one McDonalds hamburger equals one square acre of rainforest.

“As many more individuals of each species are born than can possibly survive; and as, consequently, there is a frequently recurrent struggle for existence, it follows that any being, if it vary however slightly in any manner profitable to itself, under the complex and sometimes varying conditions of life, will have a better chance of surviving, and thus be naturally selected.”
–Charles Darwin, The Origin of Species, 1859

The problem with making a declaration about what is, or is not, natural is that often, the person making the declaration is wrong. Assuming you wish to make the claim that humans should live as part of nature (as opposed to the current state in developed nations, wherein nature has been superceded to a great degree), then you must accept that starvation is natural.

This is why people are dismissing your argument: because you are being hypocritical. You admit to “throwing away” life when you kill spiders for no good reason, yet you critizice others for doing so. And you expect people to abide your proselytizing? It isn’t about the spiders or the cat; it’s about the hypocrisy.

The posters here are more than capable of reaching an informed conclusion, and many have indicated that, despite the “horrors” of the meat industry, they still choose to eat meat. Do not make the mistake that just because they haven’t reached the same conclusion as you have, they haven’t thought about it. You aren’t attempting to enlighten anyone; you are preaching.

I will state that I do not care how the cow that I eat died. It may well have been horrible. But had that cow been brought down by a cougar or wolves, it still would have been messy, and, no doubt, quite horrible from the cow’s point of view. “Nature, red in tooth and claw”, and all that. To be honest, I am more upset about the millions of needless deaths that are caused as a result of agriculture (see my earlier posts re: red-wing blackbirds); at least when the cow dies, its corpse is put to good use.

Should we make changes to the meat industry? Absolutely. Do Americans in general eat too much meat? Sure. But neither of those is a good enough reason for me to stop eating meat.