I meant, of course, we can ethically break laws which prohibit unethical things. One of these days I really must learn to write.
Oh, crap. Forget it. I was right the first time.
And incidentally, don’t blame it on the pot… I haven’t been stoned since October 
Ethics is relative. Morality is relative. The people who put up some of the more oppressive laws sure seemed to think they were a good logical idea at the time to achieve their idea of a well-run society. Who is to say that they were definitely wrong? Who says they were definitely right? What if in 500 years we look back at slavery again and see some of the benefits? Or look on the freedom to drink alcohol and lambast ourselves at how stupid we were to allow such a thing? Or something? What’s wrong with Communism? Or Democracy? Who decides? It’s all relative.
I wasn’t looking to have my mind changed, I was looking to see what other’s reasonings were for promoting drug use. I sure knew my mind was not going to be changed, and that I wasn’t going to change other’s minds. It’s almost impossible to stop a human from doing those things they enjoy so much.
The reason I don’t like use of illicit drugs is that I truly feel they aren’t necessary for the kind of pleasure people get from it, they’re addictive in more ways than just chemically (just feeling good from something is addictive), and they are more likely to be abused and therefore become a danger to someone than, say, being addicted to watching television. Though there are dangers in all true addictions, some seem more horrible to contemplate, and have wider ranging effects than others. I class illicit drugs in there.
And Coldfire - as soon as I heard tales about Amsterdam and the open drug use everywhere, I resolved never to visit. Sorry, it is very closed-minded of me I know, but really that is what I think. I really wouldn’t enjoy myself there. Even if they do have a liberal pornography policy.
Not that I probably would’ve gone to the Netherlands in any case - some places appeal, some don’t, for whatever reasons.
-PIGEONMAN-
Hero For A New Millennium!
The Legend Of PigeonMan - Back in the new year! Honest. I promise. No, really.
Psssst, Guano, want to fly?
Hell is Other People.
Guano wrote:
And Coldfire - as soon as I heard tales about Amsterdam and the open drug use everywhere, I resolved never to visit. Sorry, it is very closed-minded of me I know, but really that is what I think. I really wouldn’t enjoy myself there. Even if they do have a liberal pornography policy.
I’ll tell you why this is close-minded. Are you REALLY under the impresssion that there is ‘open drug use everywhere’ in the Netherlands ? Do you REALLY think that drug use, even soft drugs, is without ANY controversy whatsoever ? Do you think it is OK for someone to walk the streets smoking a joint ?
Come on, Guano. Just because something is legal (well, technically, it is condoned even) doesn’t mean it influences everyday society. Sure, there are quite some tourists who head for the first coffee shop after their arrival. But their is only one day in the entire year where you can see massive amounts of people walking the streets openly using marihuana. One word: Koninginnedag. The rest of the year, it’s a city like every other, with the exceptioon that those who want to CAN visit one of the coffee shops to smoke a joint.
BTW, the pornography bit was a joke. I like to think there are a few things a LOT more appealing about my country than smoking dope and seeing nekkid women.
Excuse me while I kick off my wooden shoes and smoke a joint in my 300 year old windmill. Wait ! Must water the tulips first.
Coldfire
“You know how complex women are”
- Neil Peart, Rush (1993)
Geez, Guano. Have you completely taken leave of your senses?
Open drug use everywhere? What is the matter with you?
Next it’ll be open alcoholism everywhere.
Then rampant nicotine addiction.
You’re position on this matter is completely unsupportable. Give it up already.
Every time you try to defend your stance you dig yourself deeper.
Your horse is way to high for me. I don’t do drugs, but heaven protect me from sanctimonius browbeaters like you.
Stop telling God what to do.
Hmmm. Let’s ban… uh, let me think… the wonderful world of gayity! Yes! Let’s ban that! So many people agree that the world of gayness should be banned! If that many agree, they must be right! Right? I know, they’ve never tried it but STILL…
Okay, so all you gay people, happy or same-sex oriented, you stop that stuff right now. Okay? Good. Now that there’s a law and all…
And no more oral sex. Yes, there’s a law! You stop that too! Someone (somewhere) decided (for what ever reason) that that just isn’t right so you STOP! I know, I enjoy it too but if there is a law…
And you folks that have an appreciation for pornography… oh wait, we don’t want to talk about THAT! That’s bad, well, according to the MORAL MAJORITY so they must be right even though they aren’t the majority nor particularly moral… um, let’s just skip to…
“The reason I don’t like use of illicit drugs is that I truly feel they aren’t necessary for the kind of pleasure people get from it [like, say, pornography], they’re addictive in more ways than just chemically (just feeling good from something is addictive)[like, say, pornography], and they are more likely to be abused and therefore become a danger to someone than, say, being addicted to watching television [like, say, pornography].”
Okay, folks. Ranting away I have to say: No. I no longer do drugs of any sort, legal or otherwise. I don’t do them because I made a CHOICE. I can’t handle them. Hell, I’m quitting smoking on the 15th… I’m easily addicted and it’s not a pretty sight… that’s just me. I know, believe and ACCEPT the fact that there ARE people in the world who can drink, smoke, toke and do some other things without letting it take over their life. I am not one of them. Maybe you are. If you are then hey, that’s great! I have no problem with the vast majority of drug/chemical use.
I have made my choices and I have a limited desire to impose my choices on others. Limited because I think you have the right to set your limits (EvilGhandi doesn’t want to wear a helmet while riding, I do); however, no one, IMHO, ever, should be allowed to operate a car if they are drinking/using/snorting or so lustful they can’t drive. Pick your high but don’t get into a fucking car or do anything else that infringes on anyone’s safety. Fair enough?
I’m not waving a big banner saying, “Hey, do drugs/drink/whatever” I’m just saying that I’m fairly okay with most people making informed decisions. Drink and drive? No. Toke up and drive? No. Fuck children and feel good about it? No. There are choices and there are limits.
Well then:
"…Even if they do have a liberal pornography policy.
Not that I probably would’ve gone to the Netherlands in any case - some places appeal, some don’t, for whatever reasons." [apparently, this has nothing to do with pornography. But I’m sure you get the fucking theme.]
Best!
Byz
So there isn’t open drug use everywhere in Amsterdam? Well heck, I’m sorry… 
genuinely apologetic I can only go by what I’ve been told, and everything about that aspect of Amsterdam was that you could go to a park and most people would be stoned.
So okay, I’ll change my views of that idea of Amsterdam. Still don’t want to go there, though. (There are lots of countries I don’t want to visit - Norway, for instance. Turkey. Spain. No interest at all)
Byzantine… er, what are you talking about? I am not asking for anything to be banned. I’m not asking people to change their habits. I am just asking why? I am looking at what they feel they are allowed to do, things that I do not think they are allowed to do (though I’m constantly being told that anyone can break the rules if they really believe the rule is wrong)(which is a point I’m hoping to have explained).
And Wally, I’m not being a sanctimonius browbeater. That was a joke, right?
-PIGEONMAN-
Returning Soon!
The Legend Of PigeonMan - Watch this space…! Great things are afoot!
Your loss, you’ll never experience the wonder of Breda (metos, the freshmaker and ORANJABOOM!), Amsterdam’s canals, museums and clubs, Tilburg’s nightlife, the largest european seaport of Rotterdam, the technologically rich Eindhoven, or any other of The Netherlands.
I, for one, can’t wait to go back!
Coffehouses are pretty cool, too - but I only visit them to truly understand van Gogh’s art.
Hell is Other People.
Listen, retardo-boy, EVERYONE UNDERSTANDS YOUR SIMPLE LITTLE POINT!
HOWEVER (read this part, it’s important) You start a thread–that starts a discussion, ok? YOU NO LONGER HAVE CONTROL. If people want to discuss tangential issues THEY WILL and they will do it NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU WHINE ABOUT IT AND CALL THEM “MORON” FOR IT.
:::waits ten minutes for these simple things to seep through his incredibly thick cranium::::
–
Teeming Millions: http://fathom.org/teemingmillions
“Meat flaps, yellow!” - DrainBead, naked co-ed Twister chat
O p a l C a t
www.opalcat.com
I shouldn’t have started insulting people (even though this is the Pit), but I was getting so very annoyed at some of the asinine crap people were talking about.
Tangential points are fine, but when they are directed at my posts, and therefore not addressing the points made in those posts, then I can start saying “That’s not the point.” And when they continue with the same argument repeatedly, even after I still tell them it’s not the point, then I can get freaking annoyed at them!
Tell me, Opal - what was my point? Considering I’ve listed it about five times, please tell me what YOU think I was saying, and then if you’re right, go over the replies I got again and maybe you can see why I think everyone was being terminally dense.
-PIGEONMAN-
Returning Soon!
The Legend Of PigeonMan - Watch this space…! Great things are afoot!
GuanoLad’s Point (my summary): “I think you’re all stupid for trying drugs, but when you bring up valid points that make my position look bad, I’ll call you morons for deflecting slightly from my original post, which is the inviable topic to which every post must adhere, because otherwise my whole stance looks dumb.”
–
Teeming Millions: http://fathom.org/teemingmillions
“Meat flaps, yellow!” - DrainBead, naked co-ed Twister chat
O p a l C a t
www.opalcat.com
When will you understand? YOU DON’T GET TO DEMAND! You are the terminally dense one here, because not only can you not see how most of the posts DO answer aspects of your own, but you think you have the right to demand that they do so!
I have to admit that I find it amusing watching the spittle fly from the corners of Guano’s mouth as he raves on like a lunatic, but christ, enough is enough.
THAT was a joke, right? At this point the only joke I’m seeing is you.
–
Teeming Millions: http://fathom.org/teemingmillions
“Meat flaps, yellow!” - DrainBead, naked co-ed Twister chat
O p a l C a t
www.opalcat.com
Now, now.
Relax, Opal. I for one don’t think Guano has been insulting us at all. And judging from his last posts, he is even more than willing to show us that he is LEARNING things here. I do not hold this thread against him - it is perfectly OK to be uninformed or not completely informed about a subject and then pick up on it later on. In that light, even though the OP was in the Pit, it was not personally insulting to ANYONE. It did, in my view, demonstrate some ignorance on the subject, but that’s not the point. And it’s not like all of Guano’s posts here have been ignorant and dumb: au contraire, I might say.
Glad to see you acknowledging some new facts, Guano. We’re not trying to change your mind, but still, some things are just a little more nuanced as you thought in the first place.
I’m not gonna say it is impossible to find people smoking a joint or even stoned people in everyday life in Amsterdam, in a park for example. But it is far from common. Let’s just say that over here, it has the same shock-factor as seeing a person being really drunk: it is not accepted, nor is it legal. But it happens, occasionally. The downside of all that liberty, I suppose.
Sake Samurai, wow ! I’m impressed about your knowledge of my little country ! I’ll react and explain, for everyone’s knowledge.
Your loss, you’ll never experience the wonder of Breda (metos, the freshmaker and ORANJABOOM!),
Mentos is a candy: licorice covered in a mint coating. It is made by CSM, the largest sugar products factory in Holland. Oranjeboom is the worst beer my country produces 
Amsterdam’s canals, museums and clubs,
Who am I to argue, I LIVE there
Tilburg’s nightlife,
Woo-hoo !! I was born near Tilburg It is the most ugly city of the Netherlands, but yeah, it DOES have a brilliant nightlife.
the largest european seaport of Rotterdam,
Ahem. Make that largest seaport of the WORLD, my friend
the technologically rich Eindhoven, or any other of The Netherlands.
Once more, very impressive.
Coldfire
“You know how complex women are”
- Neil Peart, Rush (1993)
This is the most ridiculous statement I’ve heard in a long, long time. Well of course slavery has benefits, oh great General Guano E. Lee. Benefits for the slaveowner, that is. As far as human rights go, it’s deplorable. It doesn’t take 500 years to see the whip-induced welts on a black man’s back, nor does it take 500 years to experience the tragedy of a child being ripped away from his mother’s arms to be sold at auction sold at auction. Your statement is truly sickening.
quoting ColdFire :
quoting Guano :
Guano again :
Coulda fooled me ColdFire. I think Opal’s responses were more than appropriate considering what Guano has been dishing out.
She could have been ten times more scathing than that, and I’d have applauded.
You never know … maybe we’ll look back 500 years from now and realize that human sacrifice, Nazi concentration camps, and tanks mowing down protesters in Tiennaman Square were GREAT things, real boons to humanity!
No no no. See? I was right, you DIDN’T get my point. The fact that I don’t like people using drugs, though relevant, was not my point at all.
The point was, and still is, that the people in this forum that use drugs talk about them like they’re a positive thing. They recommend that others use them. This is something I do not personally comprehend at all, in fact it even makes me sad. Drug use sickens me, you see. But it’s not that people enjoy them that I don’t get, but that they feel that using them, and in doing so breaking the law, is what we all should be doing. And those that don’t use them are unqualified to comment on their dangers or usage at all. Please explain this, or defend your views.
This is so simple, so easy, so straightforward that I’m amazed that people seemed to prefer picking on me, just because I have a differing view. I was not condemning. I was not asking anyone to stop using them. I was not asking people to stop talking about them in the way they were. I was certainly not judging in any cruel or unecessary way. I mean, sure, I don’t like it, and that is a form of judgement really, but who cares about what I think? Does it matter some ignorant guy frowns at this part of your life? I mean, I equally frown at Jazz fans, and who gives a shit about that?
I didn’t say I demanded it. I was arguing that they weren’t addressing my point, when they claimed they were. And I tried to explain my point repeatedly! And still they didn’t get it! And still you don’t get it!
That’s right. It is. That’s because I was making an extreme point, I certainly was not claiming I actually think this. And if you can’t see that, then I pity your future endeavours on this board, because exaggeration and extreme statements are so very often made to make a point.
I started getting insulting when this
was said to me. Because by that point I was just stunned by the utter stupidity that I was witnessing.
This is the Pit, so I thought I’d use that fact as an excuse to vent a little more extremely than I would normally do. And I wasn’t insulting you guys because of your views, or because of your drug use, I was insulting you because of the examples of incredible idiocy in some posts!
Okay, this is ridiculous. We’re going in so many circles I’m getting dizzy, and if I’m not careful I’ll end up throwing up all over somebody.
Moderator, I would like this thread to be closed, please.
-PIGEONMAN-
Returning Soon!
The Legend Of PigeonMan - Watch this space…! Great things are afoot!
At the risk of being a wet blanket in a BBQ pit, I’m going to take these questions seriously.
- Why? By which I presume you mean, why use drugs? OK, here are my reasons.
1 (a) nicotine: curiosity and a desire to be in some way cool led me to my first experiments with nicotine; I seem to recall I was in third grade, and my peer group had just got to the furtive-smoking-of-discarded-butts-behind-the-shelter-sheds stage. Nicotine use has never really done much for me, though I have since been through several minor episodes of addiction to it. If anybody’s interested, I’ll post my recipe for ending these episodes.
1 (b) alcohol: same story as nicotine, just at a later age. I have yet to meet an engineering student with no experience of alcohol abuse.
1 © cannabis: Initially, it was because curiosity finally overcame my belief that my brain was just fine the way it was, thanks, and I didn’t need to put chemicals in it to feel good. Initial experience with cannabis convinced me that whole new realms of ways to feel good were available, and I spent several years exploring these. I still use cannabis occasionally when it seems appropriate.
1 (d) LSD, mushrooms, DMT: Similar story to cannabis, but substitute “experience reality” for “feel good”.
1 (e) Nitrous oxide: This ridiculous substance is ridiculously fun, especially in company.
1 (f) Butane: Like a combination of nitrous and vodka. Physically damaging. Best avoided.
- When is it OK to break the rules?
Let’s look at the law. The law is just a great big recipe that says, if you do X, and anybody finds out, then Y may happen to you, for huge numbers of X.
Any attempt to run one’s life according to what is legal would require knowledge and consideration of every applicable law at every instant. Obviously, this is impracticable and nobody actually does this.
Instead, everybody has a personal code of ethics by which they regulate their own actions. For example, my own personal ethics tell me it’s a dumb idea to commit violence on other people (Charles Manson’s personal ethics would presumably be different). Personal ethics are kind of like internal laws but are often not as precisely specified, and they are, indeed, PERSONAL; your ethics may vary.
The law, in and of itself, does NOT define or prescribe ethics; its form does reflect, to some extent, a broad ethical consensus amongst those who MADE the laws, not necessarily amongst those ruled by it.
Because the law DOES apply to everybody (within the community whose law it is, and to the degree determined by the fairness of its enforcement), it allows a collection of people whose ethics are broadly similar to live with each other in a way that most people perceive as fair. If your ethics DO clash (actively) with those of another person, there is (theoretically) a clearly defined outcome to the clash.
For me, it’s OK to break rules that are so opposed to my own ethics that I’d rather break the rule than change the ethic; I suspect that your position, on close examination, will turn out to be similar.
Hope this helps
(-:
L~
Replace the word “extreme” with the word “bad” and that about sums it up. It also describes every post you’ve made in this entire thread.
I’ll advocate whatever the hell I want to advocate. You’re not writing letters to alcohol companies telling them to stop making beer commercials are you? You’re not bitching about the beer brewing thread or any number of the alcohol-related threads on this board, are you? Anyone who lets a government dictate his thoughts to the degree that he thinks breaking the law in ANY manner is immoral needs some serious help.
No matter what I say, it’s YOUR choice whether to toke up or not. We hear the anti-drug view incessantly on television commercials and every other goddamn place on this planet. Half the stores I walk into have a sign that says “WE DRUG TEST.” Some even go out of their way with signs like “IF YOU USE DRUGS, DON’T EVEN THINK OF APPLYING HERE.”
This leads to all kinds of discrimination against marijuana users, while alcohol, which is more harmful than pot, is not only socially acceptable, it’s considered a rite of passage. I’m sick and tired of this bullshit!
If I go apply for a job and tell them I get drunk every night, the employer will probably laugh and share some drinking stories with me. If I tell him I smoke pot once a week, I’m a depraved drug addict who needs to be fired before he steals all the inventory and uses the money to feed his addiction.
I am SICK SICK SICK SICK SICK of this fucking attitude!!! So I’m here to tell the other side of the story. I’m here to tell what pot smokers are really like; we’re no different from anyone else, and I want to be treated as such.
Any claims I have ever made about pot are backed up by piles of research. I’m not talking out my ass here.
Like I said, it’s your choice. I’m not sticking the fucking joint in your mouth.
Replace the word “extreme” with the word “bad” and that about sums it up. It also describes every post you’ve made in this entire thread.
I’ll advocate whatever the hell I want to advocate. You’re not writing letters to alcohol companies telling them to stop making beer commercials are you? You’re not bitching about the beer brewing thread or any number of the alcohol-related threads on this board, are you? Anyone who lets a government dictate his thoughts to the degree that he thinks breaking the law in ANY manner is immoral needs some serious help.
No matter what I say, it’s YOUR choice whether to toke up or not. We hear the anti-drug view incessantly on television commercials and every other goddamn place on this planet. Half the stores I walk into have a sign that says “WE DRUG TEST.” Some even go out of their way with signs like “IF YOU USE DRUGS, DON’T EVEN THINK OF APPLYING HERE.”
This leads to all kinds of discrimination against marijuana users, while alcohol, which is more harmful than pot, is not only socially acceptable, it’s considered a rite of passage. I’m sick and tired of this bullshit!
If I go apply for a job and tell them I get drunk every night, the employer will probably laugh and share some drinking stories with me. If I tell him I smoke pot once a week, I’m a depraved drug addict who needs to be fired before he steals all the inventory and uses the money to feed his addiction.
I am SICK SICK SICK SICK SICK of this fucking attitude!!! So I’m here to tell the other side of the story. I’m here to tell what pot smokers are really like; we’re no different from anyone else, and I want to be treated as such.
Any claims I have ever made about pot are backed up by piles of research. I’m not talking out my ass here.
Like I said, it’s your choice. I’m not sticking the fucking joint in your mouth.
Sorry, 'bout the double post. Browser said server wasn’t responding, but I guess it was.
Weird.