A Pit thread for Asahi

Wishing death upon others is sometimes okay (if the target is really, really bad), often obnoxious (at least if one talks about it), but ultimately meaningless. Who cares about what people wish for? I’d like a big pile of money, plus world peace and an end to human suffering. Doesn’t really matter, even if it’s sometimes mildly amusing to discuss.

I really don’t think that is true. As I’ve mentioned elsewhere the human capacity for self-delusion is bottomless. Here’s basketball player Andrew Wiggins of the GS Warriors on giving in on getting vaccinated:

Wiggins noted that he contracted COVID-19 previously and “it wasn’t too bad.” He also said he had an allergic reaction to something a couple of years ago, describing it as a “scary moment” that resulted in him now carrying an EpiPen.

“I know a lot of people get reactions or injuries from getting the vaccination, so I don’t know what it’s going to do to me in 10 years,” he said.

and

Wiggins also said he is the only member of his family who is vaccinated.

“It’s not really something we believe in as a family,” he said. "They know that I had to. It came down to get the vaccination or don’t play basketball.

From ESPN.

This kind of shitty risk assessment is incredibly common. Like the people who are terrified to fly in a plane but commute on a freeway every day without a qualm. It’s not hatefulness - it’s just a form of blind, stubborn ignorance of a type that is really, really common in all sorts of human decision-making. Wiggins gave in only because he stood to lose many millions of dollars - as he notes he felt coerced. But obviously most folks don’t have that kind of skin in the game.

At my office we still regularly field calls from people who had an allergic reaction in the past, who want to know if the vaccine is okay for them. I think 1 in 50 people have had an anaphylactic reaction at some point in their life, and a non-negligible number of people have had problems after a flu shot or something that was never properly investigated because lack of healthcare access. The problem is that the official advice is speak to your doctor about individual circumstances, and not everyone has access to a doctor.

~Max

I once had a histamine reaction to inadvertently eating a couple of slightly moldy grapes. Burning sensation on the back of my neck and my face, turned bright cherry red. Took a couple of benadryl, called an advice nurse, talked briefly with a doctor. It went away after a few minutes, but I was cautious with grapes for a little bit despite having eaten them for decades. It was a perplexing and slightly scary event and I actually knew pretty well what was happening. After a few cautious bites over some months it became clear it was the mold, not grapes per se. So I’m back to eating the occasional grape in fruit salads. But I reject any that look blemished in any way.

Allergic reactions are common as you say. But they generally have quite discrete triggers. Wiggins didn’t say he had a reaction to a vaccine and he totally would have if that was it. He just had a reaction to something and that scared the bejesus out of him, so now he fears reaction to anything outside the norm. It’s understandable (in the literal sense - given human nature), but completely unjustified. But people are just not rational actors. None of us are Vulcans and unfortunately some of us are about as far away from that as you can get.

I’m not any more inclined to be charitable to someone engaged in this kind of self delusion than I am to someone who will not let his daughter go out without a male “approved” escort because God told him to.

My PCP is a former Pediatrician, who switched to Internal Medicine because he couldn’t deal with the anti-vax parents 15 years ago (his residency was dual Med-Peds). To say that he is demoralized by his adult patients now refusing to take the vaccine and actually dying as a result would be an understatement. Bloke has aged ten years in the 18 months between my check-ups. His exact (well near exact) words were, “It was one thing for patients not to take my advice to lose weight, lay off sugar and get more exercise. I get that lifestyle changes are hard. But this is two shots that might make you sickly for a few hours or a day, and could very well save your life!”

A lot of the patients he sees have diabetes abd/or some other aspects of metabolic syndrome. Apparently in August of last year many of them couldn’t wait to get the vaccine, but by January they had become convinced that Biden/Soros/Gates/Bogeyman had subverted the process. He has had many patients in their 50s and 60s die of COVID, and many more with financially ruinous hospitalizations.

I don’t think I feel charitable exactly either. I think he’s a fucking idiot and his unvaccinated family are one more drop in the bucket of the viral reservoir and vector threat. But I don’t feel rage at that kind of stubborn ignorance. Just a sort of weariness tinged with impatient annoyance, I guess. As a Warriors fan I wanted him traded before he caved, that’s for sure.

I reserve the anger for people who are deliberately anti-vaxxers for pure gain. Political, financial, what have you. Far as I can tell governor Abbot down in Texas isn’t an idiot like Wiggins, scared of potential anaphylaxis and what will happen twenty years from now from a hidden side affect (totally possible, extremely unlikely and well worth the risk). No, Abbott is just throwing red meat to his base. Wiggins is a stubborn moron, scared of the wrong things. Abbot is a piece of shit. In my mind there is a difference.

I think the messaging was majorly botched in the early phases - specifically in December - when the media started reporting on the people who had reactions to the vaccines. At that early stage when people were first made aware of the vaccines, the messaging was don’t get it if you’ve had a history of anaphylaxis. The CDC &etc. later backtracked but in my opinion the damage was done.

This is the sort of thing I’m talking about (outdated article).

People with a history of significant allergic reactions should not have the Pfizer/BioNTech Covid jab, regulators say.

~Max

My well worn thought track on all of this is FAFO, which all too many of “anti-vaxxers” do, and JFC, if it was just them, I’d say let them find out for themselves. But… but they get sick and they put others at risk and cause needless deaths. Worse than that, they go out and try to stop others from taking simple health precautions. They’re not just fucking around with their own lives, they want to stop YOU from protecting yourself and your children. They threaten to kill people who are just trying to do their jobs. They threaten to kill people who want to protect others.

Fuck them. Fuck them all. They’re monsters.

My vaccinated 76-year-old father-in-law recently caught Covid and became really sick. His doctor told him in no uncertain terms that without the vaccine he’d be dead.

Here’s a little nuance and empathy. I do feel bad for people with a genuine phobia or people who have been historically screwed over. I understand why many minorities are scared to be vaxxed. I understand why some pregnant women are hypersensitive to putting anything in their bodies.

Minorities can be reached with information. In fact, their vaccination numbers are still on the rise. I hope that a lot of pregnant women can be reached as well. People who have honest concerns will listen. This is why places like the CDC and state public health agencies continue to work hard to reach them.

It’s the entitled, political assholes who can’t be reached. These people are refusing to participate in public health solely because the scientists and the libs want them to. The Karens and [male equivalents] who protest and harass people. The ones who spread misinformation, not because of fear, but because they’re assholes who typically get away with it because of their entitlement.

I say these entitled people need to feel the consequences of their actions beyond getting covid which may not hit them hard enough. Our health, economy, and general quality of life is more important than their need to own the libs. If they refuse to participate in basic public health, then they don’t get to participate in society. No job. No school. No transportation. No restaurants and bars. No stores. Nada. Since the majority of these types are insincere, they start behaving when they lose stuff. This is already being shown by the success of vaccine mandates even though they only just started.

I don’t wish death on anti-vaxxers.

The whole thing enrages me, but I’m mostly enraged by the people that are deliberately spreading the misinformation in order to foment violence.

I don’t think it’s so much about vaccines as it is about disobedience, convincing a large segment of the population to become ungovernable as a political tactic.

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the anti-vaccine propaganda is being pushed by the same people that pushed out the stolen election propaganda - Wood, Powell and Guiliani, most of all Guiliani*.

I was lightly watching The People’s Court yesterday. The case was a dog bite case and the dogs owner was walking her dog without a leash in violation of the local ordinances.

Her defense was that “it was her personal choice” not to leash her dog, and that she had the right to walk her dog without a leash. And she stood her damn ground throughout the judges diatribe on social responsibility and not getting to pick and choose the laws you want to obey. She lost, and announce her intention to keep exercising her “personal choice” by walking her now officially vicious dog without a leash. I wanted to reach into the TV set and slap the smug off her face, and I think that was her intention.

I expect to see more bullshit like this with every passing day.

  • in Stephanie Grisham’s book, she says that Guiliani was the only person ever to meet privately with Trump, and he did so frequently. Her and other staffers steered very clear of these meetings, out of fear of being subpoenaed- because they were all pretty sure whatever they were up to was seriously illegal. Traitors.

Throughout the pandemic, this hasn’t received nearly the attention that is warranted. I get why it’s not an issue in other developed nations because they have affordable access to healthcare, but here, it’s not only the patients that are faced with potential financial ruin, but also the hospitals are increasingly faced with slow payments from insurance companies. Maybe add health insurance companies to the list of things I’d like to collapse as a result of COVID. That way, we can be done with a system of profiteers posing as healthcare providers.

This exactly. And I suspect that it’s not just the Giuliani’s of our nation pushing it, but Russia and others who explicitly wish ill on the US, as well.

The belated recognition of divide and conquer tactics, be they internal or external, is better than nothing. Shame that we lack the national resilience to mitigate the worst of what is to come as the cleavage planes continue to be hammered.

[already stated upthread]

I occasionally see glimmers of intellectual awareness in you. More please.

So you’re in favor of telling the idiots to shut the fuck up and get vaccinated or there will be consequences?

It depends on whom he thinks is holding the hammer.

In the thread about a guy convicted of drunk driving 17 times, Asahi first blames society for not offering any alcohol treatment (they did, at least 17 times), for not actually curing the guy’s alcohol addiction, and then:

He’s seriously posting this in a thread about a dangerous drunk driver convicted 17 times. I can’t tell if this is performance art or he has a head injury.