A question about love and sex (a little long)

In My Humble Opinion
1

Some time ago, in MPSIMS I posted a story of a little tragedy of mine (don’t take it so seriously, little tragedies are best suited to take lessons of life, at least for me) in two parts, and unintentionally I’m not linking to those threads, because their OPs are solved and I feel better now. Those who didn’t read those threads won’t have a problem to understand it and presumably will be able to give me your opinions (if not, just ask, but I think it won’t be neccesary).

Now it came a question, a mundane question that is preferably aimed at women (of any age, but experienced would be better). Err… I said preferably, but in fact all opinions are welcome. Damn, not only welcome, they are needed.

Resuming: she came to me after a long time to like each other, we started an idilic relationship but she turned to be unstable and she sabotaged our affair. We were planning to get married and all was turned off, she flied away to another city and everything ended in a bad taste. I felt very bad, not because I still loved her but because I felt cheated. I never had troubles before to forget someone, the question was, why I’m feeling so bad, after I rationally understood that she was not a good one for me?

That problem was solved. And yes, I finally identified my feelings. But here’s a little background I didn’t gave before. Note: I will speak freely about sex issues and I trust we all are adult and mature dopers, if someone gets offended, please don’t read further.

(I feel necessary to state that I’m not a perverted, only a man who likes to have a full and healthy sexual life, only with his partner and being able to experiment to avoid the need for searching another bed partner)

I use to be very creative about sex. She was not, but she showed me some skills that didn’t fit with her “morality principles” she was presuming of. But that’s not the point. The point is that she pleased me in very hard ways (not hard perversions or that kind of stuff), but with hard oral sex, “black kisses”, role-playing (she as a hooker, me as a hired man, etc). We only skipped anal sex because she was afraid to be hurted, but I’m sure with a little more time she would have accepted to try it. I noticed she was very easy with her mouth and tongue, she likes to use them and she rarely find something disgusting. Again, it was very weird to see her licking me in every inch of my body without any objection, and when I politely asked her about the issue, she claimed that she had to be a “full woman” for me. The role-playing was similar. She hadn’t any problem to behave like a hooker, dressing up and talking with dirty words (driven by me, because in her social life she doesn’t like to use them). When she asked for me to “spank” her, and she told me that she loved to fuck and she loved dicks (in her hooker role), it was too much for me, not because I didn’t like the game, but because I didn’t believe she claimed to be sooo decent and correct and that she can reach those highs. Don’t miss my idea: it would have been better for me if she wouldn’t had a problem in her daily life to accept that she, as a two times divorced girl, is a full sexual creature, and that she had read and learned, and with previous lovers, as I’ve done. No, damn! She had to claim she was an innocent girl with no great sexual life and that she was “learning” with me (yeah, sure!).

Again, she stated that love was driving her to please me in many ways, and althought you may think it’s an obsession of mine, I later discovered that the real fact is that she loves sex but she can’t stand it because of her strong psychotic reactions about morality and decency. I also discovered that she cheated her first husband with another guy and her second husband with me, and that she has a strange tendency to have affaires with married men, and she’s always justifying her acts with magical reasoning (he he, that’s the way I see it).

But once again, she is not my point anymore, but it’s strongly related with my real question, and here it comes:

Ok, I felt cheated, she’s not a woman to trust, but she was cute, from a good family and we would have made a perfect match in the sexual aspect. But I’m starting to fear that she liked to please me in all ways not because she loved me (thought that was what she wanted to believe to justify her open mind), but because she enjoys sex, sometimes I think that she enjoys it more that me. Now, please, don’t think I still love her, etc, our feelings or condition are not the problem anymore, everything between us is definitely over.

Finally, the question

The question (at last!), to get your opinion, is: what do you think are my chances to find a woman who is as willing to experiment as me, with a sexually open mind (as me), and who gives love a high value, not oriented to cheat her partner?

Correct me if I’m wrong (in fact, if I am, that’s what I want to hear), but judging from my experience with women in my past (I’m 39, divorced with a son, not ugly, not an Adonis but with a little charm), girls that have been easy to have a stable relationship have been full of prejudices for bed, and girls who have cheated me have been the best in sex (as some grandmas say “a lady in society, a whore in bed”).

2

You never know, you may one day find a lady just to your liking… just don’t make sex the main part of your relationship. The physical side of any relationship should really be considered as merely the “icing on the cake” not the base of the whole thing!

3

Okay first I need to know what “black kisses means.”

Second, I don’t think there is any type of rule that a woman who is wild in bed will be a rotten jerk who cheats. If you want to know if a woman is loyal and faithful and stands behind her word, the LAST thing you should be worrying about is her attitude towards sex. Look at how she treats her friends, look at how she talks about the people she loves and find out what her values are. When a woman is dressed up like Angie Dickinson undercover in Police Woman and strapping handcuffs on you and she says “I’ve never done this before” it’s not a statement about how she values her commitments. It’s not that easy for a man to make a woman more comfortable with sex if she’s not, so you have to find a woman who has a healthy feeling about sex, and then get to know her well outside bed. There are plenty of women like that. Yeah prudes don’t cheat as much because there’s less motivation to go find someone to have sex with when you don’t like sex, but honestly most normal women can like sex and control themselves from cheating.

4

Thanks for responding. Well, I don’t try to make sex the most important part of my relationship. But I think it’s a very important part, indeed. What I’m mainly attracted to a woman is her tenderness and sweetness, not a wild look. But the woman in discuss looks sweet and it is, but I couldn’t be able to guess that her behavior was meant to cheat, in fact, I believed her from the start.

And… pokey, ehem… sorry, I thought the term black kiss was wide known (I’m a mexican and knew it in South Park. It’s kissing and licking the partner’s ass. She did it without any repulsion.

But check this out: 1: she treats her friends very kindly, at least her closest friends, males and females, love her and they haven’t seen that strange behavior of her. They don’t even suspect it, or maybe they do suspect it but they have developed some kind of blindness (imagine a friend of yours who is a crazy ass but you love her as a friend, then you ignore her failings and let her life goes on). 2: She talks with a lot of kindness for her parents, her sisters, her relatives… she claims their family is very respectable… wow, a master in the art of illusion. And 3: She puts the moral values to the top of her list. In fact, she doesn’t drink and she doesn’t goes to dancing clubs because she finds those things for lesser moral people… and because I like to have fun, she was accusing me for that… but no, I only goes to socialize, not to get drunked or flirting.

With a high set of moral standards as hers, wouldn’t you have been fooled, too? I have a female friend who likes to drunk, to party and to flirt with men, but she doesn’t deny what her nature is and, as a friend of mine, is a very close and loved friend, and I don’t criticize her behavior. She doesn’t deny it. But I think my ex does worse things with a protective shield of morality and decency. See? “I can do anything, because I’m righteous, you can’t, because you’re not…” and that’s not true. Ok, then hypocrisy turned to be her banner.

But if I find some kind of real “prude”, and if we start to fight because she’s not comfortable with healthy sex (I don’t necessarily mean handcuffs by that), then because she’s faithful and loyal to me, it will be missing a very important part of the relationship, anyway.

In fact, for me sex is not the physical part of a relationship. It has to be more… (allow me the word?) cerebral.

5

The problem here is that you’re equating loyalty and fidelity with being a prude. Those two things have nothing to do with each other. Her love of sex wasn’t the problem–the problem was her fear of commitment, and the lengths she was willing to go to cover it up.

Believe me, there are plenty of people (women) who love sex, but are capable of loyalty to one person. I know that in my case, a willingness to experiment in the bedroom isn’t something that happens right off the bat. First there has to be mutual trust and caring. After that is established, the sky is the limit.

In the future, I think you need not be so concerned with immediately hopping in bed and evaluating your partner’s sexual abilities. Focus on getting to know her as a person you can trust and respect. Passion and experimentation will build from there. A person’s history with relationships is also a very telling factor. Has this person been involved in a committed relationship longer than a few months? Do they have a history of cheating? Once you’v met someone whom you truly believe is capable of commitment, only time will tell if they really are. But don’t let an experience with one bad apple skew your view of sex, because great sex doesn’t automatically lead to a great relationship.

6

Your basic questions seem to be:

  1. Am I likely to find another sexually experimentive person?
  2. Are sexually experimentive people able to be monogamous?

My answers:

  1. Yes, you will likely find another experimentive partner. I think of myself as fairly experimentive and have never had a problem meeting partners who satisfy me. As others have already said, this should not be your #1 quality in a partner. People who don’t immediately identify as sexually adventurous may come out of their shell after they get to know you, but might also be scared off if this is the topic of conversation at your first date.

  2. Definitely. You really shouldn’t use this experience to make a judgement about all kinky people. :wink: Really, you were half of a couple…one of you was monogamous, the other was not. That’s 50 percent of your experience, so keep some perspective.

7

[sub]Well, there’s no better answer than a straight answer…[/sub]

You could have described my marriage with your question. My wife is a pretty darn virtuous woman, a soccer mom and active member of our church, and I… well, I try to keep up. We’re both perfectly monogamous and commited to our marriage and family. We also have a very adventurous sex life. What we do doesn’t follow down the line with your preferences and experiences, of course, but… well, let me just say that I’m glad to live in a state that effectively recognizes a married couple’s privacy.

People generally are afraid of wrecking their reputation, and women may have more reason for concern. You sound like a considerate guy, which should be a big plus here, but you’re going to run into the attitude that “nice people don’t do that and you’re sick if you do!”

Dumb luck led to my meeting my wife at a restaurant, so I can’t be the voice of experience on how to meet someone. I also suspect that finding that special (and kinky) someone may be harder in Mexico than it is in the USA. As cheezy as this sounds, Jay Wiseman’s SM-101 has a chapter on kink and dating which may be of use. I’ve also heard here and there that the internet is a good way to meet people. Beyond that, I’ll let everybody else play the expert.

8

Baby Fish Mouth: Sorry I didn’t give the link to the other story, but this girl was known for me since we were much younger. We started to date from months ago and I sincerely believed she wasn’t so opened to sexual practices, but we began our relationship basing it in the mutual trust and fidelity (she was pleeding me that!). She was married first at eighteen, she lasted seven years with her husband, then she divorced and one year later she married again and she lasted two years. As I said before, she blamed her husband for the failures, but now I know her better, I could see she had to be the one who cheated. Yes, she has a history of cheating, but I wasn’t capable of noticing because of her “prude look and feel”. Then I really thought that she was willing to learn from me (and in some fashion I think I taught her some thinks), but it wasn’t the experience what I’m complaining of, but the kind of phrases as “I don’t like sex, I’m only trying to be a good woman for you” and “I’m still a virgin, in my mind, for you”. I’d really prefer that another woman would tell me “yes, I have experience, as you, but we’re going to start again from here”. Imagine, the first husband found the mother of decency in the bed with another guy (thanks, friends, for telling it to me until now!).

I think you get the perfect point here.

moi, don’t think that’s my first topic of conversation, I’m not so rude but I’m not so conservative, either.

And cornflakes, don’t think I have “special preferences”, please, but I don’t like to be the husband of a kind of sexually narrow-minded woman. That’s why I said before, I don’t mean handcuffs or leather or threesomes, but being respectful and loving of every inch of the partner’s body sounds to me as healthy sex.

In some way what I’m complaining of is that I’m not able to identify when a woman is open-minded and experimentive because she is a smart person (as I consider myself) and when is open-minded and experimentive because she is a crazy ass, even if she doesn’t know it.

9

I doubt I’m the first person to use this analogy, but I think of sex as the mortar that binds a relationship together. Try building a wall with just rocks; it can’t get very tall and is unstable – subject to collapsing at the slightest touch. Likewise, try building a wall with just mortar; can’t be done – it’s just a pile of mud. But use the two together and you’ve got something to be proud of, with strength and durability.

When Desert Wife and I were married, we established early on two rules about sex:[ul][li]Never be afraid to ask[/li][li]Never be afraid to say no[/li][/ul] As a result we both wound up with a far more adventuresome sex life than we thought the other was willing to do.

DD

10

I very much like your analogy DD. Thanks for that. May I also add, that my partner and I also enjoy a loving and open relationship, both physically and emotionally. (By “open”, I mean just the two of us, we’re not into sharing with other couples!!) I would have to say that I have lost my inhibitions, which I always had in my previous relationships, and likewise my partner, which does make our sexual activities most satisfying and pleasurable, and certainly never boring!

I believe true sexual satisfaction is borne out of a quality relationship on every level.

11

from what you describe, you sound like a complete idiot.
This girl may well have left her previous marriages precisely because she was not getting the sexual fulfillment she needed.
You encouraged her to discover that side and to play out her own fantasies and then you presume to pass judgement on her.
Sounds to me like you have some pretty screwed up sexual hang ups yourself.
Sounds like you also threw away the very thing you claim you want to find.
Good job.

12

Wow! Haven’t seen it from that side. Luckily, it only sounds.

Yes, I think the girl left his previous marriages because she was not getting what she needed. But that’s the point. She will never find it. And know why? The worse part is that she claims that she left them because 1) the first: he likes to drink, to party, too much sex with her, and she doesn’t, and 2) the second: "I thought that an ugly man will be faithful, but he is not.

I didn’t judge her. I didn’t force her. Evrything was ok until she started to feel tired of our relationship, in least than five months.

The fact that she is a woman isn’t enough to justify she can be driven only by her sexual fantasies and needings. I am a man, I have sexual fantasies and needings, but I’m not throwing marriages away only because “women don’t please me”. If I get married, I want it to last very long, and if my future spouse doesn’t fullfil all my needs, I will stay with her if she loves me the way I do. There is no trick here.

13

I’m not a betting woman, so I don’t like to quote chances. I will, however, assert that these women exist. I am one.

I would also caution you, as others have, to not equate sexual enlightenment with a lack of fidelity. I was not very adventuresome, and neither was Stonebow. What we were, though, was very well read. :slight_smile: You can pick up a lot of ideas just by picking up a book. We have a fabulous and fulfilling sex life that includes some of the milder perversions :cool:
I am completely faithful, and the thought of seeking such things from anyone else makes me physically ill. I can not, do not, and will not imagine my life without him.

DesertDog, I really like your analogy, as well as your two rules. We have a similar outlook here in the FaerieBeth/Stonebow household.

FB

14

Let me add a few things here, I don’t like to be flamed when my actions are driven by careful thoughts.

I didn’t complain of her because she acts that way in the sexual aspect. In fact (I use the words “in fact” very often, right?) I liked the way she pleased me. I complain because she doesn’t accept her own sexuality and she blames everybody else for her “unstability”, and tends to fly away. I don’t think this is for a justified cause. Something must be twisted in her mind: she’s got sexual potential but she feel guilty when she use her body at her full, then she escapes and feels the need again, and so on. A friend of mine, who also knows her from long ago, pointed to me that “she has a lot of ghosts pursuing her, because of the confrontation between her nature and the education she received”. I agree.

Notice that I respect women, that’s why I’m willing to hear their opinions (once again, men’s welcome, too). I respect women if they want to be as sexually oriented as me, I encourage them and respect her sexuality. No “sexual hang ups”, no “perversions”, damn, I stated it clearly from the start.

And the main thing: I don’t start a relationship talking about sex or giving it the most important role. It only seems that way because in this thread, my OP was talking about that aspect of the relationship, trying to fit it with the loving aspect. I think it’s not hard to understand.

15

Have you asked yourself why she needed to present herself to you in particular as a “virtuous” and naive woman? What did she see in you that made her feel that was necessary? If she had made it clear from the beginning of your relationship that she was gangho for anything sexually, and even initiated your first sexual encounter, would you have been attracted to her or would you have called her a whore and had nothing to do with her? She figured out what you wanted and gave it to you. I think you, like a lot of men, want a virgin who only has the hots for you and is willing to do anything, but ONLY with you. why do you think porn plays on this theme over and over. You aren’t wrong from wanting a sexualy free woman but it’s only in the movies that she comes packaged in the body of a 16 year-old virgin. Before your next relationship you need to reevaluate what you really want and need so you don’t waste your time. You could end up with no sex if you get married, because it sounds like you may be a candidate for the whore/madonna syndrome.

16

Again, no. You are justifying her, and that’s the problem. That’s why she keeps behaving the way she does. When I finished with her, people came out with the real story of her marriages. The kind of stories of cheating and all of that stuff. She presents herself to everybody as a “virtuous and naive woman”, even that she had been married twice. I have a lot of female friends and they often talk about sex without embarrasing, and my male friends and I don’t criticize them by that.

I tried to teach her that she had to accept her sexuality, suezeekay, you read carefully, didn’t you? I’m not looking for a virgin, only hot for me. I’m looking for a woman who (among other virtues as love and loyalty, as I have) accepts that she is a sexual being as everyone and can play it without prejudices.

And for what you say: “If she had made it clear from the beginning of your relationship that she was gangho for anything sexually, and even initiated your first sexual encounter”, yes, since the beginning, she initiated our first sexual encounter, but it was clear for her I had no prejudices, so I encouraged to not being shy. It was later when she started to say it was “only for love”, when I started to being suspicious. Wasn’t easier to say “we’ve been both married, we like each other, two consenting adults, so our natural way is being sexual”? Nah, she had to start playing the puritan. I told her “you really like this, don’t you? Come on, you know it’s ok!” and she often told me “No, no, I don’t, I only enjoy it because it’s you and I love you”. Why in the world would have she thought that I wanted it like a virgin? It was her prejudices, not mine who were operating there. If you read the other thread, you could see that a few days after we finished, she went to bed with a married friend (this is proved, I’m not lying). So I think I respected her more than she does to herself. I would never date a married woman.

Please read again what I’m looking for, not a whore, nor a virgin. Only a normal partner. But this was my OP, not to flame her, althought I would have the rights to do it.

17

[introduce obligatory note about not been a Mod]

Quint Essence you might need to know that flaming is not allowed outside the bin by the People Upstairs.

18

Grousser - May we assume that this woman is Mexican?

19

The Pit, not The Bin. I am senile.

20

If the question doesn’t have anything to do with her, then why is 3/4 of what you say to do with her. It may be completely over in fact, but in your mind it is still very much alive. :smiley: [sup]IMHO, of course![/sup]