What - you trying to convert me now? I don’t think that this is a witnessing thread, my friend. And, frankly, I don’t think you’re going to have much success anyway.
Given that I DO think that it is an important question, I’ve devoted a lot of time to it. Sat in the church, the temple. Listened to the catholic priest, the progressive pastor, the orthodox jew and the devout Sikh. My conclusion: horseshit.
I particularly didn’t get those who played pick and choose games with what bits of their holy text to take as truth. Once you start taking a bit as metaphorical, why not see the whole damn thing as metaphorical?
But as I said, this isn’t the thread for that. This is a thread for questioning why if so many people who claim to believe in God do so in such a sloppy and lazy fashion. Why don’t they see it as important? Doesn’t it bother them that hundreds of millions of people believe something different just as fervently? Don’t they wonder at their luck that the true way (for those that believe in the true way) just happened to fall into their lap due to being born in the right house or going to the right school? I mean - what are the chances of that happening?
And frankly I don’t see how you can be tolerant of other faiths. Either Jesus is the son of God or he isn’t. If you believe that he is, then you have to decry those religions stating he isn’t as arse. Where’s the middle ground in that? “Different perspectives”? Do me a favour.
You’re absolutley right… I couldn’t convert you… only you could do that. I simply responded because as you said, it’s a BIG DEAL!
Sooooooooo… keep searching for the truth but don’t rely on yourself alone. Ask for help
Back to basics and one of the most fundamental elements of the Christian faith. God creates mankind… God loves what he creates… God wants mankind to love him back… God decides he can’t force someone to truly love him… God allows mankind to chose to love him or not… mankind choses not… God still loves everyone that he has created and loves them enough to wait for them to love him back… in their own time and through their free choice. Now that’s true love.
God does not decry them… they are his children (albeit misguided from his perspective) and so he loves them… even though they reject him. And so Christians do not decry non-Christians (even though they are misguided from a Christian perspective)… we love them and pray for their salvation.
I believe that the above answer is consistent with the OP’s request for insights into non-atheist views/beliefs more than an exercise in witnessing.
P.S. What does ‘pan’ mean (if it’s not a rude question).
I think that despite being wildly apart in our actual beliefs, we’ve mainly got common ground on our perception of the implications of those beliefs.
You “pray for salvation” for those who do not believe. That’s exactly what I’m talking about. I’d be the same, except I’d probably be far more in-yer-face. How can one not be? You believe that Jesus Crist was the son of God himself! That he loves you and died for you! These facts are not negotiable - they are true or they are not true. And if you believe they are true, it is the single most important thing in the world. Since you believe that they are true, it is incumbent upon you to pray for us non-believers. I can respect that. The fact that I or others happen to resent you praying for us is irrelevent because from your perspective it is the only appropriate course of action.
There’s no room in there for “different perspective” of the kind that seawitch was talking about. You “decry” other religions to the extent that you simply state that they are wrong. Fine! And in accordance with your beliefs you do what your religion tells you to do about it - namely to pray. Other religions tell their followers to slaughter the heathens. By definition any faith that tells you facts is NOT tolerant of other points of view.
I simply can’t understand wishy-washyness when it comes to religion.
I’m not sure how to respond to this. Let’s try. If my version of the truth is the correct one, then my prayers for you will eventually contribute to your salvation. When you are saved, you will recognise the prayers of others as a positive force and no longer resent them. The burden until then is mine, not yours, but I carry it willingly.
If your version of the truth (i.e. a non-Christian faith of some description) is the correct one, then presumably my prayers are of no avail anyway and in that sense, I do you no harm.
Does that make sense?
I don’t know that I disagree with you greatly here… maybe just the occasional choice of words.
Let’s take seawitch’s statement first:
‘In the above scenario, there isn’t any need for anyone to be wrong - until and unless one party imposes beliefs on another’.
I will pray for your salvation, answer your reasonable questions, witness to you, direct you to scripture so that you may understand more clearly… love you. But Christ has taught us not to force you or anyone to love him… he knows that doesn’t work. The choice to love him or not is yours alone.
Let’s look at Christianity in a practical situation. I have many non-Christian friends (hmmmm… my version of events I know but stick with me for the moment). I observe them doing and saying ‘non-Christian’ things day in day out. Some of those things are things that I used to do before I came to Christ.
What should I do… admonish them, ridicule them, ‘slaughter them’, force Jesus down their throats, highlight to them and others their wickedness? Not many brownie-points with that strategy methinks.
And so… I pray, I try to avoid wavering myself, I try to ‘Role Model’ Christian words and deeds (without necessarily explaining that that’s what I am doing) as a way of witnessing.
How about… I stop associating with them? Not on your nelly! Jesus spent his time with those who needed his salvation, not in some sort of cosy relationship with existing club members. He spent time with the poor, the sick, the criminals, the prostitutes, the outcasts, the oppressed. That’s where he was needed most. And that’s what really upset the ‘religious’ fanatics… Jesus’ tolerance and love for those who needed him the most and his willingness to be with them in a real sense.
I am firm and strong in my beliefs… in my version of the truth. I know many Christians who have to fight their zealousness daily… there’s a burning, inner need to ‘tell the world’ that is often overwhelming… did you ever bump into a reformed smoker? Yes… then you’ll know what I mean.
As you said earlier it’s a BIG DEAL and it certainly is to us Christians. It is so tempting to preach at non-believers in an ‘in yer face’ way. It’s a life and death matter to us.
Fact is, Jesus taught us that forcing people to love him has the opposite effect and drives people away. That’s not wishywashy… it’s divine wisdom.
AAAAAARGGHHH… I really hate when the message board goes down for “maintanence” right as I’m about to post something!!!
ok anyway…
I never seem to get responses to posts I make. Hopefully this one is alive enough that this tradition may end.
but you also said that your choice of that religion was basically arbitrary, and that given time and energy you might have found another that was better suited to your beliefs. Given these statements, don’t you worry that you might not be teaching your kids the right things? If you’ve admitted that perhaps your religion isn’t the perfect choice, why do you imbue your kids with its values? Perhaps you are explaining to them as you go along that there are more than one way to see things, and that what you’re telling them is just your way and need not be theirs. Otherwise it would seem that you are only continuing the tradition of uncertainty and mild self-deprecation.
I don’t know if its true that all religions have those various aspects to their stories… Only Christianity has a “resurrection” to speak of
Many athiests fall into the same trap that fundies do, ie: proselytizing/elitism/insisting they MUST be the truth…only difference is that they have “science” on their side. Many are not 100% certain of their beliefs, and to hear something that they can argue against sets them firmer in their own minds, much like practitioners of any religion/philosophy.
kymri
but people don’t do that…most people are simply in a religion because they were born into it
That may be the Biblical thing to do, but that’s not necessarily reflected in the actions of many so-called “Christians”
Yes, and if all you’re after are his teachings or morality/etc…, then it would seem that Jesus would better fit the role of prophet (ala Islam)…unfortunately Christians see the need to tack on to those good words something to the tune of “Oh yeah and Jesus is God and anybody who disagrees is damned for eternity”
This reminds me of a complaint I have with many Christians (though not necessarily walor)… Watching tv late at night I saw an ad for one of those “save the africans” type programs, and they said something along the lines of “thousands of children are dying in africa, and many of those are Christians, so call now and blahblah”, now it seems to me that if a Christian were to hear this, they should be more worried about the non-christians than the christians, cause according to them the Christians are just layin back in heaven enjoying the good life, whereas the non-Christians are…well…fucked
A-FUCKING-MEN… This is probably my NUMBER ONE greivance with christianity…though there are those that take it the other way and say the whole damn thing is literal (aka Jerry Falwell) but at least they’re consistent
This is the part I never understand… Jews, Muslims, etc… do NOT reject God…they respect God and serve God just as fervently as Christians, they just don’t buy the Jesus part (in the same way Christians do)… if, as Christians claim, Jesus IS God, and Muslims believe in God, what’s the problem?
seawitch: I really did like the analogy of the traffic accident, I may use that later if you don’t mind.
I was talking with a guy a few days ago this type of thing. I couldn’t tell where he was speaking from, he started out pretty open-minded but ended up sounding fundie… anyway when I asked why there couldn’t be more than one “path” to God he said “Because humans are at one point, and God is another point, and there is only one line in between” This gets back to an old nag of mine about analogies and how arbitrary they are if you try to justify your argument by them (as opposed to using them as an example)… Like with electricity, my physics teacher would always say “ok so you have this electric current, and its a lot like a water current, so it does blahblah” but then later someone might ask “but in this situation water would do something different” and he’d say “yeah well it’s not water it just acts like it”… Getting back to that original point, one could also say that humans were on one side of a river and God is on the other, therefore there are a ton of ways from one to the other. Is this how it is? I dunno. Just because one can come up with an analogy that seems to hold true in some sense doesn’t mean its right. [/digress]
I could say more but I’ve deviated enough for now and the rest (if not what I’ve said already) belongs in another thread on another day
I absolutely agree with you. A Christain would be worried about all the Africans… they are all God’s children.
I agree with this too… God is God for us all. The difference , as you rightly point out, is the Jesus bit. Christians accept him as their saviour whilst the Jews and Muslims do not. Jesus said,’ I am the way, the truth and the life.’ Jews and Muslims don’t buy this.
Sooooooo… God is Holy. Holiness cannot exist in the presence of sinfulness or evilness. Christ provides the bridge between us (sinful) and God (Holy). He is our route back into a relationship with God.
I believe that that is probably one of the fundamental differences between the three faiths… I’m happy to be corrected or educated further.
The Jesus issue is definately one of the fundamental differences if not THE fundamental difference… But I still don’t see why it has to be… I hear what you’re saying about him be a bridge and a savior… but why does he have to be the ONLY way? Why is it (and if anyone cites a Bible verse taht says so i’ll e-smack them) that a person can’t just live a good life and be courteous and unselfish and by that be good enough for heaven? I know I always hear the “well it is for God to judge, not I”, but then practically in the same breathe I hear “But without Jesus nobody can go to heaven” and it really bugs me…
Gandhi… as far as my history books would go, has got to be one of the least selfish people to have existed at least in recent times… His life should be a model for people of all religions… and yet a Christian would say that because he did not accept Jesus christ as the son of God, Gandhi is going to Hell… To that I often hear “we don’t know what Gandhi did in his own heart” suggesting that perhaps Gandhi secretly accepted Jesus but just didn’t tell anybody… But somewhere in the Bible it also says that if you deny Jesus in front of man, he’ll deny you in front of God or something to that extent…the basic jist is that no matter what Gandhi’s fucked, while he lived a life better than any Christian (or other human) could imagine (except perhaps Jesus if you follow that whole bit)… It seems so peircingly arrogant to say that simply because you’ve “accepted Jesus”, that you are now worthy of heaven, regardless of your own personal deeds or lack thereof, whereas Gandhi is not
I know this is a vent, but this is Great Debates and what I’ve said is, at heart, part of a debate
I honestly, truly do not doubt your sincerity here. And speaking only for myself, I can’t say I actively resent your praying for lost souls, though I don’t think it’s going to change us. It may be good for you to do it, but that’s another question. Anyway, as kabbes and I have said, if the stories are true, then nothing else matters–it’s a very big deal. The biggest. Of course a believer would feel compelled to spread the word.
But for some of us who do not believe the stories are true, when you speak of praying for your non-Christian friends, trying to be a role model for them, the kindness of your words is not the only thing we hear. We also hear a paternalistic, condescending message. I understand that it is not intended, but it is part of the message.
I do not accuse you of this sentiment, but it’s possible to read in your words that you are willing to spend time with your scumbag friends, in order to show them the light. It’s possible to infer that you consider it a favor to your friends that you stoop to their level, associate with them even in their filth. Again, I do not accuse you of this. But it is possible for a non-believer who is a bit defensive to see it that way.
I think this subtext of so many Christian messages might one source of whatever resentment is felt toward Christians. I know one or two very humble Christians, and one or two who are so self-righteous they seem like caricatures, satires of self-righteousness. By far most are somewhere between. Maybe this danger–of accidentally implying an off-putting superiority–is part of the reason Jesus told his people to pray in secret, in their closets. (There was also the danger of persecution, so the admonition may have been more practical in nature, but that’s another question.)
Kaje - I think you have to realise that Christians believe that because that is what Christ told them.
If you believe that Christ was the son of God, then whatever he says goes. Full stop.
Hence, if you believe that Christ was the son of God, you HAVE to believe that “there is no other way to the Father than [Him]”.
The fact that you or I or indeed a Christian may see this as intolerant or wrong is, as I say, irrelevant. If it’s the Truth, then it is the Truth and no amount of wailing, gnashing of teeth or tearing of hair is going to change it.
A Christian would advise you that if you don’t like it, you better take it up with God. They didn’t make the rules, He did.
As I say - if you believe it, then you have to BELIEVE IT. Otherwise, what’s the point?
is it just me or is the board reeeeaaaallly slloooooow right now?
anyway…I ask this not as a doubter but out of curiosity… the question is for Christians or anyone else who might now… Where is it in the Bible that Jesus himself says “I am God. I am the only way to heaven. If you don’t believe that I am God you will go to hell”, perhaps not in so many words, but I have heard Muslims say that Jesus never said these things and that they were in fact misinterpretations (though others have said they were fabrications added during the many changes to the original text of the Bible)
So there you go. Christians believe that Jesus is the only way to the Father. They believe this because Christ says so and they believe Christ is the son of God.
From the p.o.v. of a once-Catholic, now…erm, eclectic pagan?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Kaje *
** I don’t know if its true that all religions have those various aspects to their stories… Only Christianity has a “resurrection” to speak of **
Osiris was murdered by his brother; Isis gathered up all the bits and brought him back to life. Innana went to underworld, died and was hung on hooks for three days then returned to life.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by kymri *
**That being that if a person takes in all the information they can and compares it with their life experiences, applies a little logic and common sense to make sure it isn’t absolutely absurd, once they reach a conclusion (pick a religion they think is true), it only makes sense that they should think that claims to the contrary are false. **
We’ve already had that lovely analogy about different people seeing things from different angles in different ways, and it’s true. If Christianity helps you make sense of the world, and helps you be a better person, good on you. Ditto for Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, worship of funny shaped rocks or the back of Claudia Schiffer’s knees. If it helps you and if you’re not hurting anyone else believing it, I wish you luck. Just don’t try and convert me.
Personally, I believe there is no universal Right Answer if you know what I mean. All of them have little pieces of it, but nobody’s got a monopoly. That old story about four blind men trying to describe an elephant, when they’ve all got hold of different parts…
Dear kabbes… I don’t think that follows necessarily. I agree with Kaje… it isn’t “through” Christ, like he’s the gatekeeper, but by him, like he’s the leader. “Follow me, men!” as the great Dudley Doo-right would say.
Why the hell am I supporting Christianity? Sheesh. [runs to sacrifice a chicken to The Goat with a Thousand Young]
I agree and to be perfectly honest, I don’t know how to get around that one. And so I don’t. I just continue to respect your (third person) choices, and pray in the full knowledge that you (third person) may well interpret my actions as described above. I must do so in as sensitive a manner as is possible.
You (third party) will ultimately form opinions of me as you (third party) would anybody. My prayer is that with time, I would be viewed as sincere, however misguided from your (third party) perspective.
Wow… some very emotive words there like scumbags, filth etc. Fact is, as a Christian I am no different to my friends. I am as ‘scumbag’ or as ‘filth’ as they are. I’m still a sinner. I’ve simply been saved by grace (a gift).
My main purpose now is to walk the Lord’s path, not because I am ‘superior’, but because I chose to. Then, as the Light attracts the Moth, so might I attract their attention. As my friends see my acts, words and deeds modify with time, maybe they’ll become inquisitive and become attracted.
They have been my friends for some while. They will continue to be my friends, whether they see the Light or not. I do not stand in judgement upon them… that never was or will be my job.
I couldn’t agree more. I believe it’s one key reason why current statistics and their trends suggest that the death of ‘the church’ in the UK maybe only 25 years away.
Christians are often resented because of their ‘superior’ or ‘self-righteous’ approach. Worse yet, people will often reject Christianity, without exploring it first, but on the basis of their meeting with Christians. I wouldn’t deny that, with the small caveat that true Christians are sometimes tarred with the same brush as religious people. My experience is, the latter tend to be more off-putting then the former.
If I’m guilty of ‘self-righteousness’ myself, then I am doing my Father a great disservice. Personally, I am very much at the start of my Christian journey and so will falter as I take my early steps… I guess it’s the intention that’s important though… is it wholesome or not. I pray that my intentions are wholesome.
I dunno… seems to me Jesus is saying that you can’t get at God unless you believe in him.
“no way but through me”
If you don’t go through him, you don’t get to the goal. And going through him means following his teachings, which includes accpeting him as the son of God.
Can you give me something a little firmer as to why this might not be the case?
pan
(ps it feels a little bizarre to be persuing this, what with firmly NOT believing in God myself)
holy shit (no pun intended) maybe its just my connection but the sdmb is running slower than nuts this morning… I can hardly stand it
anyway my question was… Where does Jesus actually say he is [the son of] God? Following his teachings is one thing, but if he never actually said that, then that part of the argument is moot. I have seen quotes where he said he was the son of man. And perhaps sometime during my upbringing I saw the quote saying he was the son of God or God himself, but I can’t remember anymore…too much hedonism I guess
No problem. I just wanted to make sure, since you were responding to Doc F, that you realized he never claimed Christianity to be the Ont True Faith.
Well, yes. It was intended as an analogy.
As to the Shopenhauer quotation, if I have not made my point clear, I never will. I found it to be a suggestion that those who teach their children religion are indoctrinating them with absurdities. The person you were addressing had just told you he was teaching his children religion. You say you did not intend it that way, and I’m happy with that.
Personally, I have yet to be even slightly offended or insulted by your words, MrO. And clearly I need to reevaluate my posting style if our discussion looked like a pissing match to you. It didn’t from my side.
Something else, that perhaps I didn’t make clear: I am not a Christian. Should I shout it from the rooftops?
kabbes - Yikes. I leave for the evening, and you start considering witchburning? Was it something I said? You’re right, I’m pretty darn relieved you’re not a heartfelt believer.
IANAC, either. (Ooh, big surprise to you all, right?) And I suppose I should be answering the original OP - how did I choose my religion? I formed a set of opinions and beliefs about how to behave, with underlying morals and rules. Since I came to many of these on my own, it never occured to me to look for a church that taught them. And then one day… I found a group of people who thought the same way I did. Had I not run across them, I would probably still be running around unlabeled.
[sub]If there is a Heaven and Hell, I will have a seat in the SURPRISE! section, somewhere between Kabbes and Andros. Maybe we can sneak in some cold beer.[/sub]
