Well…[looking down, digging his toe in the dirt]…okay, peace. Maybe I’m a little hypersensitive. (I was lying when I said I had pretty thick skin.)
Let’s pretend it was a mock battle, staged for the benefit of the Christians, to make them think they had got us fighting with each other, okay?
Can somebody PLEASE find the Bible verse where Jesus says he is God?
I never realized this was a point of contention. Jesus isn’t God. John 16:28. “I came forth from the Father, and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again, and going to the Father.” If that isn’t clear enough in general, the people listening then say, “…[**B]y this we believe that You came from God.”
So then why would there be any conflict between muslims and christians? The Christians I know would say muslims are wrong not because they don’t accept the teachings of Jesus (because they do, as those of a prophet) but because they do not worship Jesus as they worship God… If this is the case, where does it say this is necessary in the Bible? Or more to the point, where does Jesus say this is necessary? (I’m not as interested in where some 3rd party might have thought this, but on the words of the man himself)
I think the beginnings of such a schism lie in Jesus’s divine birth.
Well, erislover, I would say that Christians do indeed believe that Jesus is God; He is God the Son, separate yet the same as God the Father. (I don’t understand it either, but then I don’t have to. <grin> I’ll see if I can dig up my query about the Trinity.)
Jesus was never recorded as saying explicitly, “I am God,” but there are several possible passages that may refer to such a thing:
“The Father and I are one.” (John. 10:30).
“He who has seen me has seen the Father.” (John 14:9).
(said to Jesus, without rebuke) “My Lord and my God.” (John 20:28)
John 8:57-59: "The Jews therefore said to Him, ‘You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?’ Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I Am!’ (same phrasing used by God)
He forgave sins, which is God’s right alone.
Possible evidence against:
Mark 10:18 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good–except God alone.”
Mark 12:29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: `Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.”
The evidence supporting the Jesus==God theory is much stronger if you allow later author’s words as evidence, rather than Jesus’ direct words alone. I personally lean towards the belief that J.C. never directly claimed to be God during his life, using the phrase “son of God” much as it was used in the Torah (not truly claiming deification), and that the belief that Jesus==God was a later addition helped by liberal applications of Mithraism. IANAC, and I may be wrong about the support for this belief, but I do not wish to see their deepest beliefs dismissed so cursorily.
Thread that might be of interest regarding the Jesus/God question: 1+1+1=1, or What’s Up with the Trinity?
Yup, most Christians will tell you that Christ was and is God. That triune divinity thing, dontchaknow.
But the idea of the Trinity was not developed until the third century. The Gospels were written after Paul Hellinized Jesus (i.e. Jesus may have thought he was the messiah, but Paul made him Christ and that was not just a matter of translating a word). So IMHO whatever we think Jesus said in the Gospels could have been influenced by Paul.
Joesph Campbell was an authority on the myths of the world. He said that they all had certain things in common, such as: a creation story, rebirth, atonement, resurrection, etc. I remember way back when I was in high school going to a church in downtown Atlanta and hearing a preacher give a sermon on Christianity being the only religion with a virgin birth. So much for the uniqueness of Christianity.
Joseph Campbell seemed to have viewed the world through a Western Judeao-Christian filter. He is an entertaining writer, but he did rather carefully choose myths that would illuminate ideas already held by his audience. I don’t know if he did this deliberately, but there is a definite lack of discussion of myths that do not reinforce the “tradition Western” ideals.
I think he was a Agent Primus of the Illum…
(signal lost)
Would you mind citing some of these myths that do not reinforce the “traditional Western” ideals?
**Kniz wrote:
Would you mind citing some of these myths that do not reinforce the “traditional Western” ideals?**
In an earlier posting you listed common factors of mythology; a creation story, rebirth, atonement, resurrection, etc. so I’lll concentrate on those points.
To answer the above question, check out Buddhism. The story of how The Buddha attained enlightenment (probably the central story of the Buddhist mythos) doesn’t contain anything about rebirth, atonement or resurrection.
Neither do any of the Native American mythologies I’m familiar with. If you know of one, please post it.
In Norse mythology, there is the story of Baldur and his death, just before Ragnarok but that story has no element of rebirth or atonement at least not in Christian sense. I’d challenge you to find a modern Asatruar who’d interprete it in such a fashion.
You make too big a generalization here. I have done exactly what I describe. What I was “born into” I have put to serious question more times than I can count. And many of the things I used to accept merely because everyone around me seemed to think was right, I now believe are false.
This bit-o-wisdom of yours originally struck me as just plain ignorant. Giving it a little more thought, though, I realize there may be those to fit what you describe (and my sympathies if you have to try speaking rationally to someone so close-minded on any kind of regular basis). I think anyone who wants to call themselves a philosopher, or even just an independant thinker, must be willing to question everything.
Now, I agree with you about pick and choose games with bits of things they like. Often from many differing religions. But have you, for example, ever read much of the Bible? There are some parts of it that are clearly literal and some that are just as clearly metephorical. I think anyone would be hard pressed to argue that the record of kings and who their fathers were and how old they each lived is a metephorical list. Similarly, Jesus spoke in metephors more often than not. At one point, shortly before his death, he starts telling the desciples what is expected of them and they’re surprised that he’s speaking plainly. They even comment on it because his words so often had to be puzzled over to understand.
Anyhow, that’s all I have time to type about right now. Laters…
-Kymri
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Freyr *
**In an earlier posting you listed common factors of mythology; a creation story, rebirth, atonement, resurrection, etc. so I’lll concentrate on those points.
To answer the above question, check out Buddhism. The story of how The Buddha attained enlightenment (probably the central story of the Buddhist mythos) doesn’t contain anything about rebirth, atonement or resurrection.**
You are talking about the story of Buddha’s father hearing that his son would be inspired by the suffering of people to become a Holy Man. The father sheltered Siddhartha (Buddha) from the world. Buddha eventually found out about the suffering and left the good life to become a Holy Man.
This according to Joseph Campbell is a typical rebirth story. A pampered boy is reborn into a Holy Man.
First Native American mythologies are what got Joseph Campbell interested as a boy in mythologies. I personally am not familiar with Native American myths, but I know they had one custom that represented rebirth.
It is the custom of sending boys that have come of age out into the wilderness to prove themselves. When they do this they select a new name. They are no longer a boy, they have been reborn into an adult.
In New Guinea young children live with their mothers. The men sleep in a separate lodge. When it comes time the father comes and takes the son from the mother. They go into a large specially built hut and all the boys of that age go thru a couple of weeks of ritual. They are cut so that their bodies have designs. When the boys come out they are reborn into men with new bodies and go live in the men’s lodge.
Girls do not go thru this because they naturally make the change into a woman, which still means they are reborn.
Our society does not do this and J. Campbell says that is why we have so much trouble. Gangs make their own rules, but they are in conflict with society.
I know nothing about Norse mythology, but I bet they had a ritual for rebirth.
I have done my best here. I made the statement and you were justified in asking me to prove the point. Possibly I shouldn’t have used that example, since I am not even close to being qualified.
I’m still looking for numbers here, but having no luck so far. We’ve all heard that a majority of Americans end up with the same political affiliation as their parents (I do remember reading the statistics in a Government class a few years ago, but don’t have those numbers now). Granted, religious issues are a bit more personal, but I would be willing to bet that the statistics are similiar for the religion a child grew up with and what they are later in life. Like I said I have no numbers for this and am still looking, if you have any to the contrary, please post them.
I don’t know many (emphasis to show that I’m sure there are some, but not a lot) church-goers who would call themselves philosophers or independant thinkers. In fact I know quite a few members of the tigher-reigned churches (southern baptist for example) who condemn such philosophers and independent thinkers (except of those the ones with a significantly Christian bent). When I first started reading Nietzsche I had a friend tell all but demand I stop reading it. We are no longer friends. (there were other issues there)
Okay, I think we’re mixing apples and oranges here.
Kniz originally wrote:
Joesph Campbell was an authority on the myths of the world. He said that they all had certain things in common, such as: a creation story, rebirth, atonement, resurrection, etc.
So, we’re looking for the common elements of; a creation story, rebirth, atonement, & resurrection.
Then, DrFidelius wrote:
Joseph Campbell seemed to have viewed the world through a Western Judeao-Christian filter. He is an entertaining writer, but he did rather carefully choose myths that would illuminate ideas already held by his audience.
And then Kniz asked:
Would you mind citing some of these myths that do not reinforce the “traditional Western” ideals?
Then I gave 3 examples of mythological systems that don’t include the common elements listed above; a creation story, rebirth, atonement, & resurrection. Specifically, the idea of rebirth, atonement, & resurrection are foreign or mis-interpretations to those mythological systems.
**Kinz then said:
You are talking about the story of Buddha’s father hearing that his son would be inspired by the suffering of people to become a Holy Man. The father sheltered Siddhartha (Buddha) from the world. Buddha eventually found out about the suffering and left the good life to become a Holy Man.
This according to Joseph Campbell is a typical rebirth story. A pampered boy is reborn into a Holy Man.**
No, I was referring to the event wherein the Buddha gained Enlightenment, by sitting under the bodhi tree for several days and on the morning of the last day, gained his Enlightenment.
I disagree with Campbell’s interpretation that the part of the story you quoted is story about re-birth. Can you cite any part of Theravada or Mayahayana Buddhism belief that supports that conclusion?
First Native American mythologies are what got Joseph Campbell interested as a boy in mythologies. I personally am not familiar with Native American myths, but I know they had one custom that represented rebirth.
Okay, they had customs that marked the transition between childhood and being and adult. This is very different from having a myth or legend that represents rebirth. Are you sure that this cultural event is a ritual re-enactment of the mythology? Can you back that up with any enthnologies?
It is the custom of sending boys that have come of age out into the wilderness to prove themselves. When they do this they select a new name. They are no longer a boy, they have been reborn into an adult.
That’s one interpretation of the event. Have you checked with the original source material to see of that’s how the people practicing the custom view it? Just because you see a custom that fits into your interpretation of a culture doesn’t mean that’s how the practitioners of the custom view it.
I know nothing about Norse mythology, but I bet they had a ritual for rebirth.
Maybe they did, maybe they didn’t. Do you have any evidence one way or the other? If they didn’t, then Campbell’s assertion is proven false. Norse mythology doesn’t have an example of rebirth, whereas Campbell say ALL mythologies have these specific elements in common. I would say even if Norse mythology DOES have an example of rebith, it’s missing other elements, such at atonement and resurrection.
Btw, getting back to the original points (a creation story, rebirth, atonement, & resurrection) can you please point out in the 3 examples I gave (Buddhism, Native American mythologies and Antique Norse Paganism) where the ideas of atonement, & resurrection are? Those are qualities you said are present in all mythological systems yet I don’t see where they are in the 3 examples I gave.
Amen! Er, what do agnostics say when they agree with something? “A-maybe”.
I thought they said something like “Eat-babies!” After all, they’re satanic heathens right?