A question of ethics while on a date.

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
1

I really can’t think of the right forum for this, so I suppose MPSIMS is gonna do. OK, I’m trying to sort out a very small ethical/moral question that came to me last night. See if you can help me out.
Let’s say that you’re a guy (well, for this hypothetical you are) and you’re the type of person that will pay the entire way through the date with no obligations or expectations at the end. Good night kiss…sex…whatever. They’re bonuses. You aren’t thinking “Rock lobster? Man, I better be getting some later for that one.”
End of the night comes and you don’t get so much as a goodnight kiss. Now, you can’t be too upset about it, because, as I said before, you weren’t expecting anything from your generosity other than a good time with the other person, which you’ve gotten.
Now, you do have a good time with the person and do go out again. What if, during the second date, she says that she loves being with you, that she thinks you and her could be great friends, but she doesn’t see anything romantic happening. OK, now what?

Here’s where your morals come in to play. Do you continue to pay her way? If yes, why? At this point you’re just friends and you certainly don’t go around paying for all your friends whenever you go out, do you?
But if you stop paying for her, doesn’t that just prove that, deep down inside, you really were expecting something? She isn’t interested in you and now you’re suddenly not interested in paying for her. That flies in the face of your original assumption, doesn’t it?

I’m trying to sort this through in my head and I can’t come up with a good explanation. Can someone help me out here?

2

Ack! Run screaming into the void, my friend!

And then go dutch from then on.

3

When you invite your friends out specifically to go some place with you, do you ever offer to pick up the tab?

I know I do. It’s just a gesture that since you did the inviting, you will cover the bill. Just look at it from that perspective.

4

Ender, I don’t see a moral dilemma. Whether you are expecting any romantic/sexual activity on any given date, you are “dating” i.e. getting to know one another with the long term goal of engaging in romantic/sexual activity with each other at some point.

When you change the goal to growing closer together as friends and having a (hopefully) long term friendship you are no longer “dating” and therefore should not expect to pay all costs during your time together.

I don’t see this as causing your earlier stance that you didn’t “expect” anything on any given date to be hypocritical.

-Doug

5

Aaaaaah. Sorry to hear about that. From a female’s persective, it’s perfectly fine to stop paying her way. Frankly, if you were going to be dating regularly, I would think she would end up treating you to dinner about as often as you buy. At least that’s how I do things. And really, that’s how I do things with friends, too. Sometimes I buy drinks or the meal or whatever, sometimes they do, sometimes we split the bill.

And no, it doesn’t mean you were expecting something in return for buying dinner. Hoping things go that way and expecting sexual favors isn’t the same thing.

Usually, if the guy I’m dating picks up the tab, I pick up the tab the next time. Unfortunately, there haven’t been to many “next times” lately.

6

Well, there’s a couple of things that could happen here.

You could continue to try & woo her, in the hopes that maybe her mind will change about the romance.

OR, you could continue to see her from time to time, as a friend, and as long as YOU’RE the one that asked her out, you could pay her way, or offer to go dutch treat.

My mom always taught me that unless it is specifically stated otherwise at the time the offer is extended, generally accepted practice is that the inviter pays. So, if you’d like to go out with her again, you could tell her up front that she’ll pay for herself (which might make her feel slightly more comfortable, if she’s really not romantically interested), or you could say “it’s on me,” and let her make up her own mind. She may offer to pay her own way, or take you up on your offer.

7

This question is wrongly placed in a hypothetical situation, and is contradicting itself. If this person bought them dinner merely to have a good night out as a date, then he would surely do the same while taking a friend out. But by placing us in this position, where it is mandatory to feel those emotions of ‘only desiring a good evening’, it makes it hard, if not impossibly to answer. If I actually was this person, on the first date, though not expecting a kiss or sex on the first night (I doubt many people do) I would expect physical romance after a few nights out, and would definitely be buying in anticipation of this. When she had become the friend, the situation completely changes and I would either offer to pay or not depending on circumstances.

  • Andrew
8

Admittedly sheltered and slightly naive forty-something virtuously long-married housewife and mother of 3 weighing in with opinion based on significant lack of personal experience:

Woo her or not, as you please, but don’t keep paying for her meals. Why should you? She’s not your dependent.

I don’t really see a problem here. If you invite someone out to dinner, it’s your obligation to pay. However, it’s also the obligation of the invitee to at least offer to pay his or her share (“shall we go Dutch?”), no matter whether it’s a “date” or just, “Hey, let’s go down to Hometown Buffet and eat until our stomachs explode”.

Also, where I’m “from”, usually the invitee has a pretty good idea of the financial situation of the inviter. If he’s a college kid or working at McDonalds, obviously it’s tactful to offer to go Dutch. But if he just walked Microsoft through a leveraged buyout of Mother Macree’s Mix N’ Match Home Recipe Calculator Software, then the inviter shouldn’t seriously expect his guest to offer to pay, and if the guest does offer to pay, Mr. Moneybags shouldn’t be so tacky as to take him or her up on it.

And they should definitely go to a steak house, not Hometown.

9

And besides, assuming she’s of normal intelligence, if you keep paying for her meals, she’s going to start to feel guilty about it, knowing as she does how it usually works, and you’ll end up with her not returning your phone calls and making excuses not to get together with you (“well, um, my uncle needs me to come over and make him a new tinfoil hat, he says nobody makes them the way I do…and, um, he says nobody else can be in the room with us while I’m doing it, you know, the ‘rays’…so…” [long heavy silence on the phone])

10

I realise that you wanted us to put yourself in your place, but speaking as a woman, if I am not interested romantically in a man, I don’t expect, and wouldn’t accept, him paying my way.

I don’t think if you stop paying for her that it proves you really did expect something in return for her. You weren’t paying for her because you were trying to buy her love, you were paying for her because it’s dating etiquette that the man pays. :rolleyes: You are not longer dating her, why should you continue to pay her way. I know in my circle of friends we all go dutch, no matter who suggested the outing. The one exception being birthdays, of course.

I, personally, don’t agree that the man should always pay in a ‘dating’ relationship. I can’t think of one time on any date that I didn’t offer to contribute to the cost of the evening’s entertainment.

I’m sorry that things didn’t work out for you, Ender.

11

As some of you have seen through my not so “suttle” scheme, this wasn’t fully a hypothetical. This first part happened. The second part…not just yet. She hasn’t told me that she’s not interested romantically. I was just going through what ifs and I stumbled upon this one which I couldn’t sort out. What if we do go out a second time and that situation does occur?

I suppose one could look at it lawyerly like Dublos and say that when I invited her out it was under the assumption that it was a date. When she said it wasn’t, she broke her contractural obligation and I am no longer bound by the rules originally implied. It seems rude though. True, just as rude as going on a second date in the first place knowing you don’t like the person romantically, but do two wrongs make a right? Basically I’m saying “I was only interested in paying for you when you were interested in doing something with me.”

Even if I’m not expecting sexual favors, I am, in essence, trying to buy her love through dinner. Suddenly I can’t get her love so I stop buying? That doesn’t make sense!

12

Boy, and I thought I was the only that worried about things that haven’t even happened yet.

If you want my honest opinion, if this does occur, you should pay for that date since you are already on it, unless it was, even tacitly, understood that it was dutch. After that, if you two do get together “as friends”, she pays for herself or doesn’t go :smiley:

13

I would think that you’re operating under the assumption, when paying, that there’s soem chance of something more coming of things. When that goes away, you’re just friends.

I, for one, don’t have many friends who would buy me Rock Lobster and think we’re only going to be friends.

But if she’s said she’s not interested in you it would seem fair for her to pay for herself, as you’re now going out as friends. Or that next time she’ll pay or something.

14

Ender,

Here’s another perspective on the man paying for dinner that might make you more comfortable. Currently you’re viewing it as a potenital quid pro quo , that is “I bought you dinner, so even though my motives are pure as Sir Galahad, deep down I suspect myself of doing this so I can get some action. God, I’m such a vile animal!”.
But really, the man buying dinner is really just a very basic part of pitching woo. You’re showing that you are a good provider who can ante up the good things in life. It’s not so different than a neolithic hunter dragging a haunch of venison over to his ladyfriend’s cave. Remember, only in the last 40-60 years has it been fashionable even in the United States for a woman to work outside the house. Because traditions die hard, it’s still normal for they man to pay for dates, even though the woman might be financially secure.

So all you’re really saying by buying dinner is “hey, besides my good looks and truly scintillating conversation, I can also run down, kill and dress enough antelopes to get us through the winter.” Now once the lady hands you the glove and puts things on a “friends” basis, you no longer are under the burden of demonstrating that you are a good provider. In fact, in our society, it would be viewed as somewhat ostentatious for a person to foot the bill at all social gatherings (although there’s nothing wrong with treating a friend to the occasional binge at the local fine restaurant).

So once you get out of the quid pro quo mindset, your ethical problems are resolved.

15

Since it hasn’t happened yet, Ender, I hope it never comes up! But if it does …

If the lady says something along the “let’s just be friends” line on the second date, I agree with Mauvaise that you should go ahead and pay for the date.

Scenario #1
He: Let me take care of the check.
She: Ok.

Cheerfully pay, and never call her again. If she has an iota of good character, she will offer to pay her own way. If she doesn’t offer, you probably don’t really want her as a friend anyway, unless you like the kind of friends who repeatedly as you to pick up pizza and beer on the way over, and then never pay you back.

Scenario #2
He: Let me pick up the check.
She: Oh, let me give you some money.
He: No, it’s my pleasure. You can get it next time.
She: It’s a deal.

This is a nice transition (well, as “nice” as it can be, if you were hoping for something more romantic) from “dating” to “friends.” Then, I would let the ball stay in her court – let her get in touch with you about what the friendly “next time” will be.

Scenario #3
He: Let me pick up the check.
She: Oh, let me give you some money.
He: No, it’s my pleasure
She: No, really, I insist.
He: Ok then, let’s split it down the middle.

If she absolutely insists on paying for her half, or picking up the entire check, then she is probably feeling uncomfortable – maybe because she wants to make a firm statement about the friends vs. dating thing. In that case, go ahead and accept her offer to pay, it might very well put you both at ease, and that will pave the way for a better friendship, and after that, who knows, romantic feelings could develop.

16

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Mauvaise *
**

HAH!! Join the club! I’m not just the president, I’m also a member.

17

The course of true love never runs smooth, does it?

Not a problem, really. I invite friends out all the time. Usually I will say “I invited you, so it’s my treat”, and sometimes they will insist “Oh no, you grabbed the last check”. That’s friendship, not expectations.

18

Hypothetical, eh? Yeah, sure.

So, what if you were a guy & the woman paid for dinner & you later told her that you just want to be friends? How would you feel Ender? Used? Probably.

"
What if, during the second date, she says that she loves being with you, that
she thinks you and her could be great friends, but she doesn’t see anything
romantic happening. OK, now what?"

Well, don’t just sit there & take it, ask her why, that shows her that you like her a lot.

19

Hate to be a nitpicker but “Suttle” is supposed to be “Subtle.”

Anyway, if the second time she just lets you pay for everything and doesn’t really want to give you a hug/kiss/fuck then she’s probably not really interested in a relationship. Just don’t call her past that.

20

Hate to nitpick, but it’s a joke. Here. Also see SassyKYRedhead’s aka Miss Diagnosis pit thread about Esprix.