I’m surprised that so many people found manny’s comment offensive. But then I lived through the dead baby/totally tasteless jokes fad.
Manny’s comment was gross and crude, but it was a joke. But Sultan Kinkari’s comment to Diane that “everything you touch, dies” was just plain vicious. I felt like strangling the #$%@# when I read that.
He may not have been offensive in any other thread, but he showed a level of viciousness and religious intolerance that was objectionable, at least to me. I cheered when I saw that he got banned.
With all due respect to manhattan, he isn’t the only one there. I saw the second tower collapse from my office window. People I know were killed in the attack. manhattan is not the only one going to funerals this week, but he is the only one who posted such a remark.
I’ll be damned if I’m not going to judge Diane and manhattan for their remarks, and even if I weren’t, I would not waive the right to pass the same judgment.
They’re both very good people. They were both out of line. No more excuses. I do not believe that pain entitles one to behave like a monster. If it did, then there would be lots of parking space in Afghanistan right now.
Sultan had his back up against the wall and, accordingly, acted like a cornered animal. For what it’s worth, I question the appropriateness of a cross, a symbol of milennia of suffering, in such a high-emotion public space. I also question the endless repetition of “God Bless America.”
The Taliban is saying exactly the same thing.
Sultan wants to belittle the rescue workers? Whatever. Do they really need the fulminating hordes of the SDMB to come to their defense? I think not. Their efforts and their cause are above validation, above vindication, and certainly above reproach.
So I’m a little disappointed both that Sultan, whom I would love to defend, is little more than a hackneyed, offensive troll, and that good folk behaved badly. But what can you do.
Ok… so, Diane apologized, Manny apologized (very nice of you, friend). Sultan, when his priviliges were removed, had a chance to apologize and apparently chose instead to send unpleasant emails to Lynn.
I think most of us agree that Sultan was trolling; do those of you who disagree (Batz, Monocracy?) have anything to say for your side? Or can we have this puppy locked up?
Again, thanks to everybody for making this an amiable and peaceful discussion.
–John
I have never posted so many smilies before as I have in this thread.
Leander: Diane plays hardball, make no mistake about it. But she is a civilized, and civil person. I had the mistake of forming the wrong impression when she took two people I liked to task, not - by coincidence - having encountered a lot of her other posts before that. I flamed her; she defended herself ably, and acquited herself, with dignity, of what I’d accused her of. And I apologized for jumping to the wrong conclusion. As you did.
Congratulations on being the sort of humane individual who can admit his error.
Yue Hen, thank you for your most reasonable effort at logic.
I am thoroughly amazed at this whole incident–Sultan attack, counter attack, subsequent banning and pro/anti-banning comments. All prompted, by the way, by Sultan’s very thoughtful and intelligent post, which follows:
It is so very difficult for those of us who comprehend American as a “Christian” country to understand that America’s strength is in that it is a true melting pot of people of all backgrounds, heritages and religions. Sultan exhibits wisdom beyond his (apparent) years for grappling with this very difficult and complicated issue.
Most of the problems we now endure in the Middle East result from the fact that we three children of a common God–Christian, Judaic and Muslim–choose to fight and hate one another, rather than to understand one another and our common heritage.
Yes, I will agree that Sultan lost it after having been crudely attacked by many posters in the Pit, but I stand and salute his original intent and insight and pray that Christians, Jews and Muslims around the world who read this board, will focus upon his extraordinary open-minded attempt at understanding that precipitated these attacks and ignore the close-minded uproar which it provoked.
You’re right. I apologize, and ammend my statement to denote that the idea that people get banned simply for holding unpopular opinions is an idiotic idea. Hey, it’s not targeting anyone, right?
No, see now, it’s not that simple. Had some official at the WTC erected an “official” symbol for the workers to congregate around, or some sort of “official” memorial, and it had only been a Christian cross, I’d be with you (and a lot of other people) in objecting to it. Because that would be sending an official message of “This cross is all we need to symbolize everyone’s feelings”. And that would be terribly inappropriate.
But that wasn’t what it was about. The cross was an accident (depending on how you look at it). It was just plopped there, and some of the rescue workers went to it, and felt comfort from it. It was just one of those things that some individuals took it upon themselves to enjoy, and get comfort from. And people like Sultan wanted it yanked away, anyway.
I think that sucks. I think that is the opposite of tolerance and diversity. It’s like saying “I’m over here doing my thing, you’re over there doing your thing, but I don’t like the idea that you’re doing your own thing, because it “bothers” me. So stop it. I don’t care how much it helps you, I don’t care that it means a whole lot to you. I think you’re an idiot for thinking it’s important. Fuck you. I don’t like it. Stop. Unless I think it’s OK, you are not entitled to enjoy it.” That sucks. And that’s what was behind Sultan’s attitude - he made that abundantly clear, in a short amount of time.
Sultan did get stupid and offensive at the end of the thread, like on page 2, when he said that to Diane. But that was only after an entire page of people were being stupid and offensive against him. Read the thread again … Sultan says very little personally about the opposing posters, yet the other posters make him feel like the scum of the earth through name-calling. When Sultan starts to fight back, he gets banned.
This is a very good question and is debatable. So the fact that Sultan brings up a valid pint makes him a troll?
Maybe he was going to start a pit thread of his own, but after reading Lynn’s response in ATMB decided against it. He’s not the one that started the pit thread, he was only reacting to it. And looking at that ATMB thread, it seems like Diane was ordering around Lynn Bodoni: “oh, he was being offensive! ban him!!”.
But how does one determine that? The admins of the board guessed that he was doing that. In my opinion, they guessed wrong.
Hey, thanks for that assumption without any revelation of evidence, Einstein.
That’s what this thread is about. So far, no one can give concrete reasons on why the banning took place, except for vague terms such as “trolling” and “intentional”.
No, the fact that he brought his “valid point” by calling them morons and saying fuck them did. He wasn’t trying to open a debate about whether or not they are heroes. He was attacking them.
And I don’t really see how the issue is debatable. They volunteered to do something horrible, that they don’t want to do and don’t personally have to do, because someone has to do it and they’re willing to sacrifice for others. As far as I can tell, that’s a basic definition of a hero.
Maybe Lynn misread his statement as proof he was trolling. (I don’t think she did.) But that still doesn’t mean that the mods play favorites. He wasn’t banned for attacking ‘popular’ posters; he was banned because Lynn believed, based on his ATMB thread, that he was trolling. And when he was banned, he apparently sent Lynn a nasty email, so if it was a misunderstanding he pretty well torpedoes any chance to get it resolved.
This paragraph contained so much weirdness that i had to takeit apart line by line.
And I don’t really see how the issue is debatable.
Perhaps you shoudl open your mind a bit.
They volunteered to do something horrible,
Horrible in your opinion. Some people find that cleaning toilets is horrible, it’s all amatter of perspective and preference.
that they don’t want to do
If they didn’t want to do it, they wouldn’t be there. You seem to confuse wanting to do a job with enjoying a job.
and don’t personally have to do, because someone has to do it and they’re willing to sacrifice for others.
If they don’t have to do it, why do they? There are volunteers lined up to Virginia waiting to help out cleaning up the WTC … in a supply and demand perspective, the volunteers are actually getting a favour.
As far as I can tell, that’s a basic definition of a hero.
No it’s not. You made up that definition to fit what you you thought were the qualities of a WTC clean-up worker. When you find yourself trying to find logic to support a conclusion rather than using logic to come to a conclusion, it’s time to start second-guessing yourself.
That’s it. I’m done here. I have no idea how to argue with someone who thinks that cleaning up pieces of decaying human flesh could not be horrible from the perspective of nearly all people.
Can someone lock this up? I think we’ve resolved things with everyone but Monocracy, and after this I don’t think there’s any hope of a reasonable resolution with him/her.
That’s it. I’m done here. I have no idea how to argue with someone who thinks that cleaning up pieces of decaying human flesh could not be horrible from the perspective of nearly all people.
Can someone lock this up? I think we’ve resolved things with everyone but Monocracy, and after this I don’t think there’s any hope of a reasonable resolution with him/her.
