Listen you shit stain, you’ve spent months saying ridiculous things like You must be willing to sacrifice! What are you willing to do to end this?! Voting just may not matter anymore! Rule of law is dead! American Democracy is collapsing!
But now you’re just telling us to go vote? Fuck off. If you were half as smart as you pathetically claimed you we’re, you’d go get a job where your geopolitical genius actually made a difference instead of playing Prophet of Pants-Pissing on a message board.
Or if you really believed we’re as truly as fucked as you’ve repeatedly told us, and that we’re standing at the precipice of history with the installation of a tyrannical dictator, you’d pick up a gun and start shooting, you wimp.
Or in other words, asshole, shut the fuck up and do something about it. Your schtick is only amusing to those who like to whack off to tragedy porn or like to fancy themselves Rebels. The only time you were actually worth anything in the past six months was when you were having a hissy fit because no one believed you were the smartest guy here. That shit was hilarious! Do more of that!
It’s odd that his lawyers are arguing that a President can do anything he wants just to avoid Trump having a sit-down with Mueller. That seems like taking the long way around just to avoid an interview. And if their argument is that Trump can do anything he wants to any investigation in his government, then why hasn’t he shut Mueller down already along with the NYC one against Cohen? Because he knows he’ll get into trouble, that’s why, whether via an indictment or potential impeachment.
Now, it’s still an open question whether a president can be indicted as no one has actually tried that before. And it seems like no interference in a DOJ investigation is more DOJ regs than a legal thing via Congress. What else impedes a president from interfering in things or pardoning himself? I’m asking because I’m not sure what’s legal, what’s in the Constitution and what’s just standard norms via internal regs
Suppose Trump fires Sessions, Rosenstein, Mueller, and everyone on Mueller’s staff. He can do that.
Now, how can the legal system stop him from ending the investigation? It’s ended, because there’s nobody with the legal authority to continue it.
Let’s say nobody changes the locks, and Mueller and his staff keep showing up at work. They no longer have subpoena power, they’re no longer in a position to offer plea deals because they can’t charge anyone with anything. They can write a concluding report based on what they know, and what then? Is there someone they can give it to? Or do they just release it to the general public?
Seriously, by what mechanism does the investigation continue?
There is none. There will be no second chances; this is it. There will be no one to step in and stop him unless the American people rise up and say “no, this is unacceptable.” And right now, I would not bet on the American people doing that, not even if their school children were being murdered in schools once a week and their largest minority population was systematically being murdered by the police. Oh, wait.
One don’t need to be a geopolitical genius to notice that yours is a dysfunctional government currently being taken over by right-wing racist authoritarians. I make no claims to being the smartest guy here but I can see what’s happening and I don’t pretend that Republicans will suddenly straighten out and fly right post-Trump. That would be like pretending Republicans will give up attempts to disenfranchise and gerrymander their way into power because they won the last election. As for Mueller’s investigation, it’ll be in the shredder before the ink is dry.
You can tell me to fuck off too if you like, but that won’t change my mind, it’ll just make me think your government is failing and you’re an asshole.
And as unlikely as it is that Americans in general speak up, it is even less likely that congressional Republicans will, ever. How any Republican after this fiasco ever claims to hold a belief about anything will be mystifying.
Maybe saying it’s “dead” in the stative sense is inaccurate, I would agree. But it’s clearly diseased and sliding into a bedridden state. It is anything but healthy, and you’re deluded if you believe that this is just a temporary event that’s going to reverse itself when this country has come to its senses.
Next one to call me a cowboy gets it in the neck. And I have done something about it; shouted MAGA-hat-wearing Nazi-loving scum off the stage. I’ll probably have to do it again this year now that summer’s on its way.
My assumption has been the Republicans in Congress would finally have enough and stand with the Democrats to impeach him if he crossed that line (the line being firing people and shutting down the investigation). I can’t say I’m fully confident at this point that they would follow through given how cowardly they’ve been towards Trump up til now, but it might be enough over the line to finally get them to act. And since Trump hasn’t actually tried to shut it down legally (though he’s tried to get Nunes and his lackeys to interfere in Congress and is using public opinion to try to discredit the investigation and the FBI), then he must think he’ll get a lot of blowback from Congress (Gowdy, Ryan, McConnel, Graham, etc) if he tries
As for indicting Trump, I’m not sure if anyone in the DOJ really has the balls to try that since it’s never been tried before, even if Mueller suggests it in a report. It’s unknown territory and unsettled law that it might be too treacherous to try it in this case
In a way, you are a bit of a “chicken little”. You are warning of dangers that may not come to pass, and maybe even of some other dangers that are fairly unlikely to come to pass.
But, the cost of democracy is vigilance. That the sky is not falling is not something that we should take for granted, but something that we should at least glance up at from time to time to ensure that it is not in fact, getting ready to crash down upon us.
I said at the beginning, as early as his violation of the constitution on the emoluments, was that he was a tyrant. Now, that didn’t mean that he had tyrannical powers, just that he had a tyrannical mindset. The checks and balances that are part of our normal govt structure are what are supposed to prevent someone with a tyrannical mindset from being able to exercise tyrannical powers. Those are simply absent. He should have been called out on his inauguration, as he was continuing to personally profit from foreign govt interests, in direct violation of the constituion. When it was said that it was fine that he did that, was when I personally got a bit worried.
The pillars of democracy are strong, but they are made of the people who are dedicated to preserving that democracy. And the current administration is not just picking away at those pillars, they are starting to bring in power tools and pneumatic jack hammers. Will they bring democracy down? I dunno, it is hard to say what will win out. But is it their intent to bring democracy down? I think, absolutely.
If we are complacent about it, and not vigilant about their actions, and calling them out on ever step, and yes, VOTING in november, we may find it much harder to maintain a democratic form of government.
I hope you are wrong, I really do, but if you are, I will thank you for your vigilance, rather than mock or insult you for it.
If you can afford some time, find someone in your area who is worthy of your vote, and spend a few hours on GOTV to help her campaign. Or sign up to be a poll watcher, or election judge.
Voting is key, of course, but it’s not all you can do.
My own plans for this autumn are 1) volunteer for Mike Quigley’s campaign, 2) volunteer for Pritzker’s campaign, and 3) help oust Roskam (not my district, but he used to represent me and he’s an asshole).
Oh, and if money’s not too tight, throw a few bucks where you think it would do the most good.
But as others in this thread have pointed out, is it “vigilance” if the message is “give up, you idiots, there’s no hope!”? You may not see it, but I do, and I think I’ve got more folks who agree, FWIW.
I don’t know. I guess, given the intricacies, I was just assuming that if that were legally (not politically) possible, it would’ve been done by now, given the never ending screaming about Trump’s political invincibility elsewhere in this thread. State investigation may also be a possibility, if my understanding is correct.
Yes, the events of today and yesterday support the idea that Trump isn’t completely confident that Congress will roll over and play dead. He’s attempting to work over public opinion on his possible upcoming attempts to shut down the investigation:
**yesterday’s release (presumably by the White House itself, unofficially) of the memo WH lawyers wrote to Mueller. The letter is clearly intended to move public opinion in the direction of “Trump is above the law.” That they want to hammer home this message now, indicates that Trump is about to violate the law. http://time.com/5299554/trump-lawyers-mueller-obstruction-subpoena/
**Today Trump tried to distance himself from Paul Manfort (“came into the campaign very late and was with us for a short period of time”), and complained that the FBI should have warned the campaign about Manafort being under investigation. Some interpret this as a sign that Manafort has started cooperating with Mueller—which would have huge implications for Trump. If it’s true then Trump would be very tempted to test the will of Congress by doing massive obstruction–firing Mueller (via firing Sessions, etc.) and pardoning Manafort. Trump: Why didn't FBI tell me about Manafort investigation?
So we may know what’s up very shortly. If Ryan sits on his hands in the face of such barefaced obstruction of justice, then there certainly will be demonstrations in the streets…and then what?
Who cares what his motivation is? I don’t see why it matters.
If someone yells “The building is on fire!” in a building that’s on fire (and this building IS on fire), what difference does it make if his intention is for everyone to run, or for everyone to stay and get incinerated? I make my own decision based on the warning, either to run or to stay and die. Who cares what the guy yelling intends for me to do?
And you’re gathering people who agree with you? That’s even more mystifying. To what end?
Because, again, the message I’m hearing is “the building is on fire, but you’re idiots if you can’t see that there’s nothing to be done and we’re all going to die no matter what.” And I brought up the agreement to demonstrate I’m not alone in that specific interpretation. This particular poster has already backpedaled on two statements I’ve seen that I thought were very firm and clear by claiming metaphor or some such.
Plus I’m still not sure what good voting does if rule of law is gone. Why doesn’t Trump the fascist dictator just cancel elections, rig them, or ignore them, and just send the FBI and army against those that object? That’s what happens when the rule of law is truly meaningless.
Voting is the least you can do, but it is the least you must do.
I do a bit of local political work as well. I don’t have time to volunteer, but I do close for election day, so all my employees can vote and also assist in GOTV efforts. I don’t do an official one, but I do make sure that all of my friends make it to the polls. Mostly I assist people with their sample ballots, and explain the issues and candidates to them, so that they can make an informed choice as to how to vote their best interest.
We all have moments of despair. I see roads that we can take that lead to great places, but I do see roads that go to a fair amount of doom and gloom, and I don’t know that we are going to choose the right one. When I look at what we are up against, I do understand the feeling that it’s not going to work out, and that we’re all just gonna be fucked. I try to be optimistic, but to not realize that the stakes here are very high, and that losing here will lead to some very unpleasant consequences for pretty much all involved, a bit of verbalization of that doom and gloom is not really all that inappropriate.
Like I said, I really hope that he is wrong, and that it is all rainbows and sunshine on the other end of this tunnel. Make him wrong, not by mocking or insulting him, but by helping to change the world to go on a different path, one away from the one that he sees.
