Ack! What to do when your SO belongs in Etiquette Hell?

In My Humble Opinion
161

There’s a huge difference between noticing and caring. People WILL notice. I can guarantee that.

What I like is to wear dress that’s appropriate to the occasion. I am a super-casual type. I wear jeans virtually every day of my life, and my preferred footwear are (is?) Chuck Taylors. I am more than happy to have a job where it is not necessary for me to dress up. But when the occasion calls for it, I feel much happier and more comfortable if I feel that I’m dressed for that occasion, even if whoever invited me would hold it against me if I wasn’t.

162

::blushes becomingly::

I couldn’t let your compliment go without a thank you, and I’m glad I could be of some help. But I’m going to leave the thread quietly now, with my best wishes, because I’m not appropriately dressed for a trainwreck. :wink:

163

I think that’s what I was getting at when I mentioned the kilt thing. Scottish formal wear is a lot of hassle (few people actually own these garments, they’re the kind of thing one rents for an occasion). My Dad and Best Man wanted to wear them, because doing so would make them feel good. I was initially pissed off because I think they look cheesy as hell.

But so what? It may have been my wedding, but it wasn’t up to me to tell anyone else what to wear. Dad and BM enjoyed dressing up, and that was all that was ultimately important to me: that they enjoyed celebrating a major life event with me and my wife.

164

The world is full of people and discovering their character takes time. So we have to first evaluate whether that person is a person likely to be worth the investment of time and effort necessary to discover their deeper character: Do I like him? Do we have anything in common? Are we similar? Are we likely to get along? We – and this includes you – start this evaluative process on sight. A lot of valuable information about a person is conveyed by how they stand, dress, act, carry themselves, interact with others, use their eyes, use their hands. You can learn a lot from a person just by observing him or her across the room, without ever saying a word. We are not talking about ultimate judgments of people, we are talking about first impressions. Do you want your first impression to be “I am a confident, interesting, attractive person who is socially aware” or your first impression to be “I’m a slob who is too stupid or too self-centered to follow basic social norms”? If the problem is not stupidity but willful pigheadedness then, yes, you have disclosed something about your character: You have disclosed that you are selfish. Frankly, what else does a person need to know about you before deciding they’re prefer to meet someone else? No one owes it to you to stand you long enough to be able to judge your character.

But people can judge one another based on their social awareness and the effort they have put into behaving appropriately.

If a poor appearance is maintained voluntarily, there is no reason a person cannot be judged for choosing to maintain that poor appearance.

What strikes me as “shitty elitism” is the arrogance and selfishness of the belief that you are somehow above or exempt from the courtesies and conventions that grease the wheels of social interaction for everyone else. That is “shitty elitism” at its worst.

If you look like a slob, I will do you the courtesy of presuming your authenticity and I will assume you are a slob. I don’t actually give a shit what your deeper character is; I have no incentive to dig through shit for diamonds.

165

Sure, yes. People will notice how one is dressed. What I meant was that, well, the only reason to feel uncomfortable about attire that one is otherwise happy with is the assumption that others will care. If they don’t care and you don’t care, why would there even be an issue?

Invites that say “Wear this!” put me on edge. I’m not a total asshole, I have some idea of what sort of dress is expected. I’m just not clear on why it is expected, and no-one has ever been able to explain the rationale. Beyond saying “It just is! Live with it!”

166

Ah, but you get that they were costumes, right? Well, the tuxes and evening gowns were costumes as well. And I didn’t insist that anyone buy a thing. Most of those people already owned those clothes. A few men asked me where they could buy a cheap tux, and I was happy to tell them. (I know a place where you can get one for about 80 bucks. It won’t stand up to close scrutiny, but it looks OK from afar.) And I was happy to tell people if an alternate dress was OK. I understood that most of them were poor students, so far be it from me to force them to spend what they didn’t have.

Having said that, while I do think it’s important to dress appropriately, there is one custom for weddings that bugs the crap out of me. I hate that bridesmaids have to buy their own dresses. Usually they look like crap outside of that environment, will only be worn once, and cost upwards of $300. The bride should be paying for that.

167

I just said that I would care. I don’t think that the only reason to feel uncomfortable about attire is the assumption that others will care.

A couple of people have mentioned this, but many people consider it a favor done to be informed of the level of formality, for their own comfort and peace of mind. In the old days, you didn’t have to do this, because codes of dress were far, far more specific. If you were married in the AM, there would be one style of dress (for men and women). Afternoon, another style. Evening, another style. People would know from something as simple as the time of day what they should wear. Those conventions have been tossed out the window to the point where people wear white tie and tails to their 10:00 AM wedding ceremony. No one KNOWS what to wear anymore. At least if the host gives you a hint, you have a fighting chance of getting it right.

168

And it’s not a conscious decision. We’ve evolved that way. When you’re out there on the African savannah, the ability to size up someone quickly is something that can save your life.

Evolution is such an elitist bastard.

169

No, being egotistic would be insisting that everyone else in the world follow suit. (No pun intended.)

“I’m a free spirit! Nobody has to wear a suit to my wedding! Wear a lei and a tutu, for all I care!” is a fine sentiment, and one that I don’t think anyone here would disagree with.

“I’m a free spirit, so take your societal norms and shove them! I’m wearing a lei and a tutu to your black-tie event!” is not so fine. It is, in fact, rather egotistical and obnoxious.

I will further point out that being a brand-name snob (“Gasp! He bought his suit at Goodwill! How gauche!”) might possibly count as assigning people value based on the clothes they wear; expecting appropriate attire in various social situations (business interview; wedding reception; Halloween costume party) is not.
…er, editing to point out that apparently there has been a full additional page of posts since the post I was responding to, so I’m a little behind the conversation. Not sure how that happened.

170

And the ability to get past this trait, using our brains, is what allows a functioning human society.

171

Sometimes going with that “gut feeling” about someone though, is a good thing. As I said, I ignored the signals my first (now ex) husband sent. I didn’t ignore them in the prospective date, and I do not regret it for a minute. I was later told that he didn’t respect himself, or others, had self-esteem/depression issues, and could be manipulative and abusive when he wasn’t getting his way. I was quite right to have refused to date him because he didn’t comb his hair or put on a shirt to be introduced to me.

172

You didn’t tell them what to wear, you told them what not to wear because you preferred not to see them in attire you yourself describe as a “cheesy Scottish cliché.” It was certainly your perogative to feel awful about setting parameters on attire, but it was also your perogative to set those parameters in the first place. You didn’t say “You must wear suits of armor!” you just said “don’t wear kilts, okay?” And they wore them anyway. I’m pretty confused to find that your conclusion from that situation was not that they were pretty damn rude to disregard your request – which they were – but that you were somehow rude to ask in the first place.

It is not inherently rude or bossy to give guests some clue as to the type of attire that is contemplated. That way you’re not the only guy in a speedo and flipflops while everyone else is in chinos and polos – a not impossible result of an invitation in another thread, employing the baffling “beach attire” to describe the dress.

No, it isn’t. People size each other up all the time, constantly; we all do, even those who profess that they don’t. “Functioning human society” still requires assessments of who is friendly, attractive, trustworthy, as well as assessment of who is mean, not our type, not to be trusted. What baffles me is the assumption that any of us owe it to anyone else to look beyond what we choose to appear to be in order to discover some “character” that magically will be different than how we choose to appear. Very few people do that, because very few people have that kind of time.

173

Well, but if there were no pointless conventions, you wouldn’t necessarily agree with others as to what is or isn’t appropriate. You’d just be comfortable wearing whatever you liked to wear. So yes, in some respects at least you apparently do care what others think.

We have to care what others think, as social animals I guess. But this is where you’re losing me - I do believe that all this “AM wedding, wear Morning Dress” type stuff is something that is well confined to the dustbin of Austenien history, but I struggle to understand why it should be replaced with other ideas that are just as arbitrary but a lot more opaque.

As to judgements by appearances, well, they can be valid. But if I’m walking the streets of Glasgow at 1am, the guys I avoid are not the ripped jeans and Husker Du shirt guys like me. The guys I avoid are the bastards in suits. They’re generally better groomed than I am, although I am not a slob. But a thug in a suit is still a thug.

In general, I like the way I look. There are few occasions where I would intentionally dress in a manner that would make me uncomfortable. Such discomfort is invariably externally imposed.

174

You know what? Yes, you damn well can judge people on their clothing choices.

If I’m sitting on the bus and the guy across from me has black and red spiked hair, pierced eyebrows, lips, and septum, wears a spiked collar, and is sporting a 15-year-old Misfits T-shirt, he will not be my first choice to request directions to the nearest office of the Junior League. (If he is wearing a brand new Misfits T-shirt, however, he is a poseur :stuck_out_tongue: )

If it’s a 60-year-old woman with frosted platinum blond hair Aquanetted out to an exploded dandelion halo around her head and the latest in Saks’s very best, I’m going to wonder why she’s on the bus, but I’m also not going to ask if she has a spare joint in her purse, bein’ that I feel like getting mellow.

If I am approached by a man who smells like last summer’s armpits with dirty, uncombed hair and an unkempt beard, I am confident he is either homeless or a college student.

I know a fellow with, as it is termed, fuck-you money. He wears blue jeans, boots, and a denim long-sleeved shirt 90% of the time. At formal events, he wears… dun dun dun… formal clothes. Believe me, he’s not one to bow to social convention just because someone tells him to. He’s JUST the type to flip off someone who tells him what to do on the basis that ‘this is how everyone does it’. He didn’t get rich and famous by following everyone else’s lead. But he does respect the people around him enough to dress the part when he goes to something more formal than a company picnic.

In the SCA (not the Student Council, the Society for Creative Anachronism. Think a RenFest but generally without the fantasy aspect and with a more historical bent), most people find that half the point is dressing up in period clothing. I know a splendid couple who between them have both the money and the sewing capabilities to show up in fully trimmed and embroidered and exploded-peacock Elizabethan garments. I know a truly amazing lady who comes in a dress she may well have made out of an old set of sheets. They are respected equally – largely because they have more qualities than their dress sense to give to the local group, but also because they have made an effort. Those are the watchwords in our group. Broadcloth tunic and sandals tied with a piece of rope? You’ve made an effort. Old sheet with a hole cut from the middle? You’ve made an effort. Naked but for a thong and covered in blue paint? We don’t get many Picts around here. Interesting effort?

Blue jeans and Reeboks and a T-shirt with a Coke can in your hand? Could you maybe make an effort?

175

Sure. Sometimes. At other times, it still comes in quite handy. Whether a stanger in a dark alley is wearing a suit, gangsta clothes, or rags is most definitely going to affect how I handle myself. Most of that is pure gut reaction, and in most cases I’ll follow my gut.

But I don’t walk through dark alleys much. What about other situations? How about approaching a coworker that I don’t know? If he’s wearing a suit, a lab coat, scrubs, a security guard jacket, or a janitor’s coveralls will tell me a great deal about who he is. Sure, he’s probably a great guy no matter what he’s wearing, but I can tell a good deal about his upbringing, education level, and ambition. I might be wrong about all of those things, but I can’t help but form initial opinions.

176

Of course. I’m not saying for a moment that appearances are irrelevant. I just know that this sort of reaction can be very fallible, and we fail to recognise that at our peril. Certainly, I can’t see why a suit suddenly assigns one moral superiority, though I’ve worn suits enough to notice that many people believe that to be the case.

It’s just that we can make awful mistakes. I had an ex who was always impeccably dressed. Sexy as hell, actually. What a bitch. My gut feeling was hopelessly wrong, and I should never have paid attention to it.

Your instinct was right in the case you cite, yes. But I notice that your concerns (from what you later discovered) had little to do with his shirtlessness or his hair.

177

No! On the contrary, doing this - sizing people up based on their adherance to social norms - is exactly what allows us a functioning human society! Without it, we’d all be growling at each other, sniffing everyone’s asshole trying to figure out if they’re one of Us or one of Them. We’d don’t fight like dogs because our noses suck and our teeth are weak, and we survive better cooperating then fighting. Wearing the Right Thing or saying the Right Thing or looking the Right Way are ways we identify you as one of the Tribe, and therefore someone we should probably not bash over the head with a large rock.

Your following social conventions convinces me to spread my little cavewoman legs for you, because I know that you’re likely to follow other social conventions like not eating our child.

THAT’S the reason. Biology and evolution, and it took us from gibbering apes to…well, to judge from this thread…to jibbering apes. But it got you and me both born, buddy! :smiley:

178

Here’s why I do it. In many people’s opinions, a Halloween party doesn’t feel as festive if no one wears a costume, a funeral doesn’t feel as somber if everyone’s wearing Hawaiian shirts, a play isn’t immersive if the actors aren’t wearing costumes, and a religious ceremony doesn’t feel as religious if the pope is wearing jeans. In many occasions in society, the feel of a given event is enhanced if the guests as well as the hosts participate and contribute to it. Refusing to participate in the host’s planned version of the event is rude. Whether it’s a beach party, a masquerade ball, or a hoedown, disdaining the stated intent of an invitation that you accepted is not polite. If I accept an invitation, I try to contribute to the festivities, which includes enhancing the mood by dressing appropriately. As a result, if I’m not feeling festive or I am not interested in what will be happening, I simply decline the invitation. If I’m only going out of obligation, I obviously care enough about the person throwing the party to fake it convincingly.

To me, it sounds like you want to go to any event you choose without giving even the slightest amount of thought to how your presence contributes to (or detracts from) the event. I’m sure most of us have been to concerts or sporting events with bad crowds, family events with bad relatives, and parties with boring and unpleasant guest lists. It sucks, and being part of the failure of an event is an insult to the host.

179

Fine. let them dress up. No one’s stopping them. They should just give everybody else the same courtesy to choose their own dress that they expect. I don’t understand this femine urge to control men’s choice’s in dress or to conform to other people’s unreasonable demands to dress up. Telling your guests what to wear is rude. That’s all there is to it. If they have a problem with someone not wearing a suit, then they’re shallow, superficial, self-absorbed people anyway. I’ve had this fight with my wife a million times. I loathe dressing up. I refuse to buy a suit. She always breaks me down in the end. I’m rooting for a guy to stand up against the tyranny of being dressed by his wife like a 5 year old.

180

At this juncture, I’m going to assume you’re being deliberately obtuse, but I’m a stubborn bint, so I’m giving this one more whirl:

You’ve listed compassion, empathy and kindness as aspects of one’s character. By which I’m going to assume you also include being thoughtful and considerate to one’s fellow man in general (and one’s friends and loved ones in particular) in the list. Therefore, when the invitation to their event indicates that they are having a an event at which formal wear is appropriate, you would be happy to accede to their request, correct? View it as a request from a friend - because that’s what it is. They want to have a formal party to celebrate their wedding - which is (as lobstermobster pointed out) basically only an aesthetic choice they made about what kind of party they want (sort of like what color the tablecloths will be and whether or not they want live music or a DJ or what’s on the menu). It’s their party, and they’re allowed to make any aesthetic choice they want.

The only two polite and considerate options available are “play along with their aesthetic choice as best you can” or “gracefully decline their invitation”. Coming and then deliberately refusing to play along (or at least make an effort to play along) is rude and disrespectful to them. Which isn’t compassionate, empathetic or kind.