Acowards lie or a white lie?

Having this debate with a lady friend of mine today.

Sometime ago, I was up at the bar with some friends of mine. While at the bar a friend of mine introduces me to a friend of his.

Me and this lady got to talking through out the night. We both got a little tipsy; we never made out or anything but there was some flirtation going on.

By the end of the night we exchanged phone numbers with the intent of going out on a “formal” date. At the time I’ll admit that I knew I had no intention of wanting to be with this woman in a serious way. To be honest; I just wanted to have my dirty little way with her and be done with it.

The next morning I woke up feeling as little guilty so i decided I wasn’t going to pursue that any further because she was such a nice lady; I felt like she deserved better respect.

I never called her (like I said I would) but she called me and left a message. She sounded excited and REALLY wanted me to call her.

So now feeling even MORE guilty felt like I needed to call her back. Not wanting to hurt this girl’s feelings; I told her a BS lie. I told her that I’m just coming out of a bad relationship and I’m still f’d up over it. And I didn’t feel like I should be dating just yet.

She graciously said she understood and we said our good byes.

My Lady friend seems to think I shouldn’t have lied to the lady. She felt she was “owed” the truth. She thinks I should have owned up to my bad judgements the previous night.

My contingency is that this Lady shouldn’t have to get her feelings hurt just because I was acting like an ass the previous night.

So cowardice? or white lie?

It should be note that I fully admit to acting like an ass that night at the bar. I shouldn’t have done that.

I admit I have my issues, but if I had been the lady in the bar, I would much rather have heard “I’m not ready for another relationship,” than “I was only interested in fucking you because I was drunk at the time.”

I totally would not hear the part where you said, “Because you seem like a nice person and deserve better than that.” I told you I had issues! :stuck_out_tongue:

So your lady friend thinks you should have said what exactly?

“Gee, Marilyn, I sure did have fun talking to you last night, but that might only have been 'cause I was sorta drunk and definitely horny. Beer goggles, yanno? Anyway, I was talking to you mainly because I wanted to nail you. And let me be clear–I only wanted to nail you. I didn’t think you were good enough to have a relationship with. But after I woke up this morning, and my beer googles had dissolved, I realized that I didn’t even want to nail you all that badly, and since you do seem like a nice person, I figured I shouldn’t even pursue that, just in case you happen to be interested in more. I don’t want to take the chance of hurting your feelings. So I think it would be best if we didn’t go out on a formal date.”

And that would have been better how?

Look, I don’t think you necessarily acted like an ass at all. You were having fun flirting with a woman. You thought you’d probably want to see her again in some capacity. In the morning, you realized that seeing her again might not be such a good idea. Oh well.

At least you called her back and begged off. Most guys probably wouldn’t have even bothered to do that much.

I don’t think you should have fabricated an excuse. There was probably a better way to let her know that you’re not interested without telling her things that could easily be refuted. (Assuming that you’re not, in fact, coming off a bad breakup. If you are, then it was fine to use that as an excuse.)

Anyway, I’m generally opposed to lying, but there was no reason for you to tell Marilyn a “truth” that could only be hurtful to her. The only truth that you “owed” her was to let her know that you wouldn’t be going out on a formal date with her. You did that.

Or to summarize–you shouldn’t have lied to her, but you definitely shouldn’t have “owned up to your bad judgement the previous night” either. You should have tried to find a white lie that was less of a whopper, but overall, you did the right thing. The kind thing.

Are you sure this lady friend of yours isn’t just trying to stir shit up?

I don’t see any good to come of telling her the exact truth. She’d feel bad, you’d feel bad, and it wouldn’t help either of you. Just because you talked about making a date later, that didn’t mean you were committed to anything. I think that even if she does find out about the lie, she’ll most likely understand why you told it. And at least that way she doesn’t have to lose face.

As Green Bean said, it would have been better if you could have come up with something else, but I think what you did is better than making everybody unhappy.

Why cause someone unnecessary pain? It’s not like telling her the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth will somehow help her.

I think you did the right thing for those circumstances, though maybe you could cut down on the “good enough to fuck, not good enough to love” thing.

Since you are a man, it’s a coward’s lie.

If you were a woman, most would let it go as a white lie.

Well, what exactly is the truth? You don’t really explain it that well… Why did you have no intention on being with the woman in a serious way? Was she unattractive? Was she somehow beneath you? Didn’t like her personality? You’re not interested in starting a relationship right now with anyone? Or you’re just a chronic bachelor, who likes one night stands?

Other people gave their own versions of the truth, are any of them accurate?

Is what Green Bean said right?

Was freckafree right?

Was phouka right?

I think that most of the time, honesty is the best policy… I think that if you’re just a jerk, that she deserves know that. That way, she’ll know to avoid you in the future.

Oh goodness, don’t use my little hypothetical “whole truth” as an example, nyctea!! “Not good enough” was meant to be a reflection of what Marilyn would hear, not of what SHAKES was thinking.

And why should SHAKES have to justify not wanting to have a serious relationship with her? That’s just bizarre.

There’s nothing wrong with wanting only sex with someone.

Shakes, I think you did the right thing. There was no reason for you to hurt that woman so your response was protective of her feelings.

Just imagine a world where you told everyone exactly what is on your mind… we do that sort of “white lie” all the time, or the world would revert to barbarism.

I was not making any kind of moral judgment*, I was just asking why - what is the reason he “had no intention of wanting to be with this woman in a serious way?” And why not just explain the truth to her? Let her know the truth so she can avoid him in the future… I would think that most women would not want to be used in that way… and on the rare chance that she is into it, well good news for SHAKES: sex with no strings attached!

  • Although it is my opinion that there is indeed something wrong with wanting only sex with someone IF that person is not aware of your intentions. If they know you only want sex and are OK with that, great! It’s a win-win. But otherwise, it’s not an ethical way to treat another human being. It’s dishonest and abusive.

Good god. The biggest mistake I see is telling the lady friend what a jerk you were.

I think these are pretty much all the same thing. So basically yes, all the above is correct. I never thought she was beneath me tho’.

bolding added by me

This is the debate my friend was trying to make as well.

She also questioned the veracity as to why I lied to the woman. She wonders if maybe I was less worried with hurting her feelings and more worried with looking like an asshole. I admit I don’t like looking like an asshole but I would rather do that than hurt this lady’s feeling for no good reason.

How on earth does him telling her the truth enable her to avoid “people like him” in the future?

SHAKES, you didn’t do anything wrong here. You flirted with someone you have no serious interest in, and then politely sent her on her way with your best wishes. This is pretty standard bar behavior, in my experience. The whole truth does her no good, and you don’t owe her anything.

  1. That is such a standard line in these circumstances that it is no longer a lie. It’s the same as refusing an invitation because one ‘has other plans’.

  2. You owe the truth to a soon to be former spouse who has just gambled away all your retirement savings on a week-end in Vegas with some little POA from whom s/he caught an STD. You owe respect and consideration to those you may have misled as to your intentions.

  3. Just how does one hurt another’s feelings without looking like an asshole?

The only flaw in your response is that it was too detailed (as is referring to ‘other plans’). Something like ‘I don’t think this is a good time in my life to explore a relationship’ is fine.

And, assuming you didn’t drive home from the bar, I don’t see that you behaved badly. You met, were attracted to, and flirted with a stranger; you decided to avoid a cheap and shallow relationship with her. Hell, you even called her back instead of letting her hang for a week.

You did fine.

Agreed. If you had misled her into having sex with you I would probably think you were a jerk, but having desire is not a crime and I think you did the morally responsible thing. Normally I am all for complete honesty but this would be a case of causing someone unnecessary harm for no reason other than possibly to ease your guilty conscience. I equate this on about the same level as telling your dentist you floss three times a day or complimenting Grandma on her lovely sweater. No big deal.*

*I’m curious, though, are you certain she was after something serious? Maybe she, too, would have been happy with a quick fuck. Just because she agreed to a date doesn’t necessarily mean she was thinking long-term. Honesty in this case just might have brought you down an unexpected, mutually agreeable path of no-strings-attached sex. Just saying.

That’s a good point. I still think it was unnecessary to give those (false) details, but it really isn’t in the same category as making up some really outrageous and unique lie.

But you weren’t an asshole! I’m really not sure why you feel so bad about this. You have nothing to feel bad about.

Why on earth should Marilyn avoid him in the future? He wasn’t a jerk. I think SHAKES should probably do a little mild avoidance just to make sure that he doesn’t end up in the same one-on-one situation with her again, but this is a no-harm-no-foul situation.

Yeah, I’ve been thinking the exact same thing. I HATE it when people assume I’m looking for a “relationship” just because I’m a female person. But maybe it wasn’t an assumption on SHAKES’ part. That conclusion could have been based on things that she actually said.

I haven’t read this thread yet, but this jumps out at me, and I just wanna say, I like your style!

Snip.

I realize I’m not a mind reader but this lady struck me as such a classy lady that I didn’t get the whole “I just wanna fuck” vibe. In fact I kind of get the vibe, even if we did date, she probably wouldn’t feel good about doing that after a good handful of dates. (Not a standard in my world.)

Also, (this may be total arrogance on my part) I’ve become pretty good over the years of spotting out women who are going to latch themselves onto you. Even if you do tell them before hand that you’re only interested in something casual. (this is standard in my world BTW.)

This is actually an area where I’ve been questioning my morals over the past couple of years. If I tell a woman I just want to fuck and she says: “OK I’m cool with that.” Even tho’ I see tons of red flags indicating to me that she wont be cool with just a fuck; Am I wrong for fucking her anyway?

I agree with how you handled the situation.

However, SHAKES, have you ever considered the possiblity that she just wanted to have her dirty little way with you, and be done with it? And now, you’re just missing out… :wink:

Ahem…appearing “classy” and just wanting to fuck are NOT mutually exclusive! Just because I wear a string of pearls…I’d better stop now.

Maybe it’s not arrogance. How old are you? How long have you been dating? It’s not unreasonable to think that maybe you’ve learned something by now.

This is an excellent question. Probably worth its own thread.