Advice for unattractive women vs. advice for unattractive men

In My Humble Opinion
61

Stop wearing or occasionally start wearing glasses is another piece of advice often given to women; occasionally it’s given to men too, TBF. And it can be good advice depending on your looks (some people suit glasses better than others).

I look about a million times better without glasses. I have really nice eyes but a strong prescription which makes them disappear - thinning the lens doesn’t change that. I’ve given that advice to a male friend with beautiful eyes and terrible taste in glasses (that he wasn’t willing to change), but he had actually asked for advice, it wasn’t just something I said out of the blue. I’d give the same advice to women if they asked for advice, too, if I also thought that they’d look better in contacts.

I know you’ve apologised now (and good for you; it’s always hard), but I really can’t see what about Monstro’s posts seemed harsh or comparing her love life to anyone else’s or anything at all. Did you read a different post on a different thread and then mix them up or something?

62

No, I think I just misinterpreted what monstro posted. Best if I stop digging, really. :cool:

63

In the interests of clarifying the reaction (and absolutely NOT in the interests of piling on,) I will say that it came across as harsh to me as well. It was the juxtaposition of the many OPs I’ve read, containing appeals from good, well-meaning, heartfelt and lonely men honestly stumped as to why they are always alone, against the flawed distillation: “I’m an ugly guy who can’t get laid”.

I didn’t respond as such simply because I know Monstro’s posting history, and was pretty sure it wasn’t meant that way. So I’ll say again, not piling on here. Just explaining because if it were me, this would bug me until I understood.

64

I didn’t think she was insulting virginal guys, but rather commenting upon the oddness of advising women en masse, in a wholly unsolicited way, to do things that women in this very thread are saying they’ve been told they need to do since birth…when ironically they aren’t the demographic group starting thread after thread about their woeful sex lives.

The post she responded to was both patronizing and tone deaf. Here is it again:

I’m glad I’ve been reminded to look at myself, because I didn’t do that like 15 times already today. And how I could forget the makeup? Didn’t know this either!

65

I’m not putting any words in anyone’s mouths. These guys are always saying variations of “I’m ugly, I’m a loser, and I’m a virgin!”

I’m not insulting anyone. I’m just repeating what they put out into the universe.

And maybe it’s because I am a woman who has been repeatedly told how I need to “improve” myself and I have actually followed some of this advice…but I don’t automatically assume that these guys are trying their absolute hardest. I’m all for giving them a listening, reassuring ear. But they also need to be ready for some hard-to-hear advice. Like the kind of stuff that women have drilled into their heads all the time.

66

Nowadays it seems to me most single people look at dating sites and those always have the persons picture on them plus height and weight. So looks are still important.

67

And when those threads come around, they do get given advice - find more hobbies. Get out more. Make yourself interesting. Great advice!

Except women get:

“But ladies, look at yourself. What can a little makeup do? What can the right clothes do? Do you need to lose a bit of weight? How about your hair? How about eating healthy so that your skin improves.”

68

This is like telling a basketball player who struggles with free throws: “Have you tried throwing the ball in the basket’s direction?” It’s almost insulting.

69

I think it would surprise a lot of guys to learn that men are more likely to be overweight than women are. Women are more likely to be obese, but your average guy is more likely to benefit more from advice like “lose a bit of weight” than a woman is.

And yet this kind of advice is frequently directed at women, particularly by message board denizens of the basement-dwelling neckbeard variety.

70

Honestly, it’s still better that “get better at blow jobs”.

71

Well, I don’t live in a basement, my beard is neatly cropped above, below, around the side and for length, and for what it’s worth I’ve been married for more than twenty years - so I guess I’m not actually disenfranchised from pointing out that if men are more likely to be “overweight” rather than “obese”, it’s a little dishonest to even try to spin it as suggesting that “it’s men who need to lose weight”.

Unless what you’re saying is that *overweight *men might actually manage to shift enough to matter, whereas *obese *women will run out of willpower long before they actually make it into the only-overweight bracket, in which case the facts may well be on your side.

72

Ah…? Is that a school teaching social etiquette? :dubious: (I am an ignorant Millennial.)

73

I’m saying that fatness is not a “women” issue. In my experience, the men who hand this advice out to women so freely seem to conveniently ignore their own beer bellies and double-chins. Do they think women find these physical features especially attractive?

Also in my experience: Fat girls are not less likely to have a SO than a skinny chick. In fact, I’d say that it’s usually the eating-disordered, ultra-skinny chicks who are weeping online about how lonely they are, how ugly they are. Fat girls are usually doing okay in the “keeping company with someone” department. Maybe the morbidly obese suffer disproportionately. But the majority of women aren’t morbidly obese.

74

Velocity, that was one of its functions. Basically, this venerable and antequated institution taught what were referred to as the ‘womanly arts’ to young ladies in preparation to be good mid-century wives. Topics included such things as deportment, social converse (small talk), properly setting a table, arranging flowers, how to walk like a lady, sit like a lady, and speak like a lady in a well-modulated voice. There was a large dollop of etiquette, sections on applying makeup so as to look like a lady, not a trollop (yes, my instructor used that word back in 1966), sections on writing a thank you note, a condolences note, etc. Lots and lots of social graces that would have been well-known to, if not practiced by, the Man Men females.

As my mother said to me when she was trying to sell me on this program, “It will help you present yourself in the best possible light.”

75

I must say, I’m not surprised to learn that the majority of Dopers look like they got hit with an ugly stick. I wish I could commiserate with your pain, but I simply can’t. You poor schlubs are on your own with this whole ugly thing.

You see, I was born a beautiful baby and grew into a beautiful man. Don’t get me wrong, I do feel a bit guilty and quite entitled not having to waste my time doing stupid things like improve my intellect or develop a personality.

God blessed me to be able to do better things with my time, like learning how to fleece people out of their life savings with Ponzi schemes and improving my bowling average (brag: if I can get my average up another 50 points, and remove the gutter bumpers from my lane, I have a shot at turning semi-pro!).

I learned early in life that I was beautiful, but I didn’t let it go to my head. Mom used to tell me that I looked like the back end of a horse. As you know, ugly people are associated with the front end of a horse, the long Steven Tyler horsefacey end. Mom knew I was the exact opposite of that. The back end of the horse has the beautiful toned haunches and the handsome, silky tail!

I used to overhear dad brag about me to his friends, “if I pushed my son’s face into cookie dough, I could make gorilla cookies!” Tell me; is there anything more majestic looking than a Western Lowland gorilla? I think not!

You know how people like to jokingly give nicknames that are the exact opposite of what people really look like; for example, calling a fat person, “slim” or a midget, “stretch”? The exact same thing happens to me all the time. I’ve been called all kinds of cute, ironic “opposite” nicknames over the years, even by perfect strangers joshing with me: “pickle nose”, “Dumbo ears”, “liver lips”, “horrible cretin”, “malformed abomination of nature”, “ungodly waste of DNA who shall be cast for eternity into hell”…you name it; I’ve been called it—and, those were just the cute names our pastor used to call me.

I’ve been handed scores of business cards from plastic surgeons, cosmetic dentists, major reconstructive surgeons, face transplant specialists, etc. Ha, ha, I get it…even doctors have a sense of humor.

But, tell me, how many of you have been compared to fine works of Art? Not many, I suspect. I don’t like to brag, but my looks have been compared to a Pablo Picasso, a Salvador Dali, a Jackson Pollock, a Wassily Kandinsky and other masterpieces.

You know how youngsters and particularly teenage girls scream and faint when they’re in the presence of uber-attractive movie stars like Brad Pitt or cute musicians, like the Beatles? Yeah, well I get the exact same treatment! When the youngsters see me coming down the street, the screaming and fainting commences. It used to confuse me that they always ran away from me while screaming and fainting, until I realized they were obviously running to tell their friends or parents about the “movie star” in their midst! Kids!-they wear their emotions on their shirtsleeves, bless the little rascals.

So, ugly ones, I apologize for being beautiful and blessed and entitled. Maybe you’ll have better luck when you reincarnate into your next life. Good luck.

76

Could there be anything to the cultural perception that men are shallower than women are when it comes to admiring physical beauty and THAT’S why overweight men aren’t given that bit of “advice” as often as their counterparts within the other gender are?

77

The advice differs because the intended audience differs. Gay men don’t dress up and groom themselves more than straight men solely because they want to feel fabulous; they do it to attract men. It’s sexual signaling in the same way that putting on makeup and sexy clothes is for straight women looking to attract a straight guy.

Contrary to popular opinion, women are attracted to physical beauty nearly as much as men, but they also weigh personality and behavior factors much more heavily than men. It’s part of the wiring.

So, men are advised to improve their non-physical attributes because those areas are more important to women than physical ones. Ideally, they would improve both, but the bang-for-the-buck lies more in behavior. If women thought more like men, you can bet there would be a shitload more marketing for shoe lifts, men’s cosmetics, plastic surgery, etc.

If men valued the intrinsic qualities more in casual dating (which they do when assessing a long-term mate, but show far less discernment when only looking for sex) then women would be advised to focus on their sense of humor, demonstrating their competence, etc. in the same way that men are.

Your audience matters.

78

Sometimes people with 20/20 vision are blind. Sometimes you have to state the obvious.

A young woman at work stood out because she was so bland. She went about her work, but always had her head down. She had a b/f but it was pretty obvious he was using her.
I found it easy to talk to her possibly because I had trained her in her job. But under that bland exterior I knew there was a different girl trying to get out.
So I started boosting her up. I suggested she change her hair style. And one day she did. Very nice.
Then I suggested she start wearing contacts and put away the granny glasses. She did. Wow!
Next thing she knew, some of the guys at work started noticing her, talking to her, joking with her. Before this transition began, no one even knew she existed.
Before we knew it she dumped the b/f.
Hell, even I started to see her differently. If I hadn’t been commited, …?

She was a 9 dressed up as a 3.

Sometimes you have to hit people over the head just to remind them they have a head.

79

The OP has noted one asymmetry between men and women’s preferences – that physical attraction is generally a more important factor for men’s preferences than women’s.

However there are other asymmetries that mean that, on the whole, I would expect unattractive women to have a greater choice of partners than an unattractive guy.

Imagine you put a representative sample of 10 guys and 10 girls, all aged 20-something and straight (for the sake of simplicity), in a house.

I would say it plays out like this: 1 or 2 of the guys are very handsome. Maybe another 3 or 4 guys are presentable enough to look at, as well as interesting, funny etc. These guys will get all the attention of the girls.
The rest of the guys are going to struggle…they’ll all want to hook up with (at least) 1 girl, but find it hard to make that happen with the more desirable guys around.

Meanwhile, for the girls, many will choose not to date anyone from this group if they cannot date one of the desirable guys (and maybe not even then…maybe none of the 10 guys quite floats a particular girl’s boat). But any of the girls could hook up with one of the “bottom 5” guys, even probably the least attractive girls, if they really wanted to.

80

I’m glad this story had a happy ending for your coworker, but you were out of line to give her suggestions about her appearance in the first place. You were her coworker, not her friend or family member. It was none of your business how she chose to look.