I only wanted to add, trust your gut, do something about this, hire a detective or something.
If something is going on, those children need someone looking out for them.
you are definitely between a rock and hard place here. Inaction could result in the kid getting molested, if molestation is what’s going on. Action could cause needless stress and possibly suffering to the whole family, including the kid, if it’s not going on.
I think your best bet is to find someone whom you could consult without necessarily pulling the Child Protective Services trigger on the family. What you really need is more information, either more information about BIL’s activities or the advice of an expert source who can determine from the information you do have if action is warranted. It is conceivable that you and your wife may have seen or heard something that an expert would recognize as a decisive point, one way or the other, without yourselves realizing it, as from what you have said I do not believe you are experts in detecting molestation.
I don’t know who you could go to for this help. Teachers and other professionals, I know, are required by law to investigate and report signs of child molestation. I don’t know about child psychologists. Maybe you could visit some websites that deal with the topic and learn more. Just try to find some objective info, which can be kinda hard to do on this topic. Maybe you could talk with someone without mentioning who it is you are concerned about.
Don’t want to alarm you unduly. I’m sure some Child Protective Services agencies and agents are very good at separating the abusers from the merely suspicious. But I imagine that for your average family it’s pretty stressful to even be investigated by CPS, even if they find you to be non-abusers.
Also, re the protected garage room. You said your BIL has a lot more money than you think he should (i.e., his income doesn’t seem to be matched with his means). This would seem to offer an alternative explanation for the garage room. Maybe he’s making money there in some manner that doesn’t involve porn but which he’s nevertheless not eager to have widely known.
Speculation about the room as a secret whacking-off fortress … well, it seems to be a lot of trouble to go to. Why not just go in the bedroom or the bathroom and lock the door like eveyrone else does?
According to this guy, it happened to him all the time when he was teaching in Japan. I only mention it because you asked, and there are apparently some contexts in which it is common, but I doubt any apply to your situation.
If they even appeared to be a happy family, you might want to hesitate. But from how you describe it, I’d say a few visits from a social worker would be a good idea. At best these kids have a mentally ill mother and a father who is up to something very secretive. Kiddy porn? Meth lab? Shrine to Elvis?
If you or your wife work for an employer that offers an Employee Assistance Program (EAP), you may be entitled to some free counseling sessions for pretty much any type of personal or family problem. Your employer never knows who uses this service, it is provided by a third-party firm and often connected to your health insurance. They could provide referrals to appropriate agencies or other professionals.
[QUOTE=Stainz
I once reported a neighbour who was a completely unfit mother, anonymously, to Children’s Social Services in our province. They were at her place the next day, for quite a while. [/QUOTE]
I’m curious. What was the result? Does she still have custody of her children? Is she incarcerated?
He may very well be doing something he doesn’t want people to know about (and this fear of discovery can often be irrational - it may be something relatively tame), but jumping to the conclusion that he’s making child porn because he touches his daughter a lot is a pretty huge jump. That’s going clear across the jump-to-conclusions mat in one fell swoop.
She was 18 I think, and separated from her boyfriend, who was probably 22 or so. Her baby was about 7 months old at the time. After Social Services visited, she called her boyfriend to b*tch about it (they lived in the basement suite of a place I rented, and unfortunately I could hear much of went on. I’m quite sure she knew it was me who reported her. She ended up getting back together with the guy, who was actually a really, nice decent guy, and they moved into his parents’ place, so that his parents could help her raise the baby properly. The last I heard, things were going better for them.
Could you give us some more background? What does he do for a living? What is his education level? Same question for SIL (wife’s sister)? How close are your wife and her sister? can’t your wife talk to her sister and ask her what the purpose of the room is, or if she suspects something strange? What exactly is wrong with SIL? Is she mentally ill? Has she always been that way? Maybe there is some sort of emotional abuse going on toward the SIL. Previously, what was your relationship like with B&SIL? Like, do you spend holidays together? Get together for barbeques?
Another question, when you went to look at the room, did you ask permission, or did you just wander in there? And if it’s all locked up, how did you get in there? Did you ask him why he built the room?
And, what has clued you in on the unexplained income? How do you know about that? How much are we talking about?
My initial 2 cents is to hire a private investigator…
[snip]
Psychologists are mandated reporters in every state, I believe. And what we are reporting is SUSPECTED child abuse, not hired-a-detective-and-I’m-dead-sure-plus-the-kid-told-me child abuse. You can even call up Child Protective Services, describe the situation (without giving any identifying info, yours or his) and ask for their input. Private citizens can always make an anonymous report. CPS (at least in California) seems to have moved away from yanking the kids out of the home at the slightest provocation. People who are investigated and found to be endangering the child in some way are much more likely to be required to take some parenting classes or seek family/individual therapy. How could that be bad in this situation? Much better than waiting for the Feds to catch up with him and all that kiddie porn he’s got on his computer…
Doing nothing will probably weigh heavily on your conscience if it turns out there is something really bad going on and you ignored your intuition. It doesn’t sound like you and your wife’s relations with them are all that close at the moment anyway, especially since the blundering-into-his-bunker incident. Best of luck with the situation and it would be nice if you were wrong, for sure.
Not having kids of my own, I can’t comment on the whole being touchy/cuddly with his daughter thing, but I wouldn’t worry too much about the whole Fortress of Solitude in the garage on it’s own.
As others have said, there are plenty of legitimate reasons for wanting to turn your garage into Fort Knox- including not wanting his wife to see his “Kinky” collection of Lesbian porn, or perhaps he has valuable but embarassing items in there? Say, the largest collection of Hello Kitty memorabilia in the Western World, or a complete collection of Barbie Dolls.
Without wanting to sound paranoid, he may also have bought an expensive set of golfclubs/fishing gear/firearm that he doesn’t want his wife knowing about.
While it’s horrible to accuse someone of being a kiddy fiddler when they aren’t, it would also destroy people to know that they suspected and did nothing.
The thing is, that if you make an anonymous tip-off and Social Welfare show up at his house, tear it apart, and find nothing even vaguely inappropriate, he’s still going to be on a list somewhere of Suspected Kiddie Porn Freaks- even if there isn’t the slightest bit of actual evidence to suggest he’s into that sort of thing.
I don’t necessarily think keeping quiet is the right answer, but I felt it needed to be mentioned that a false accusation could haunt this guy for years, all based on a gut feeling and the impression that he’s “Kinda funny looking”.
Why not have a word to the school counsellor and say that you think there are some stresses at the house which could be affecting the daughter’s schoolwork? That way, if there is a problem, the appropriate action can be taken, and if not- well, this guy doesn’t have a big red flag next to his name in every Law Enforcement and Social Welfare database in the US.
My son has been known to do this during rough play; I don’t consider it particularly normal, but it’s not in itself necessarily a sign of anything in particular. That two siblings did it to you in short succession may mean nothing more than that they were acting out some kind of double-dare.
What caught my eye is how the OP mentions this guy shows no interest in his wife… and a few posts later, provides any amount of reasons why this should be so. That hardly makes someone into an incestuous paedophile, yanno.
I can’t see how the father could be involved in the making of kidporn; for that he would require a studio, not a booth. The very fact that he withdraws in the booth shows to me that he doesn’t feel he can do anything fishy in the rest of the house.
So maybe he’s watching porn, but at this point there is no reason to suspect that it is childporn. Is he the kind of man that would want to keep personal use of porn a big secret?
Now, about the possible abuse of the daughter. You say he’s constantly touching her; is she touchy/feely affectionate back or does she just “undergo” it?
I was going to advice that you and your wife make up a story of an abused girl you are aqainted with. Work this story casually into the conversation when your niece is around. Stress the parts that the girls is not dirty, that the family as a whole is helped, and that the father does it because he is troubled and that he will get help, (so no lines like “I hope the bastard’s going to be thrown in jail to rot”. In other words, make it easy for her to show interest in the story Abused kids mostly feel a great responsibility for their abuser and their family (especially if the mom is as useless as you say) and feel like they are the ones who have done something wrong or dirty.
Then, if your fears are confirmed, call in the school counselor at the girls shool or put in an anonymous phonecall (through a phone-booth) to child protection service.
But that is of no use because you say you don’t see the kid anymore.
How about your sister talking to her sister, the wife? Not about the daughter’s problems head-on (she’ll just clam up about it) but about her own? She must have problems enough, and while she unloads her heart to a sympathetic ear, she might just say something with regard to her husband and daughter.
Perhaps the most reasonable advice is to call Childservices tell them you suspect abuse, and ask them what to do.
Makes no difference, in my experience. Parents can easily form sexually-motivated bonds with children that, because they become part of normal life, are accepted by the child and the family. Such behaviour (such as having her sit on his lap, lots of touching, etc) throws up a big red flag to me, as I’ve seen it before.
I agree. You couldn’t forgive yourself if something was going on and you let it pass. Likewise, it isn’t up to you to allege anything inappropriate is going on. However, any decent child support service will have come across similar cases and will best be able to advise. Good luck - but please, don’t decide to do nothing.
Well, I can’t really add very much to what others have said in the thread, other than to say that what you’ve described does not decide suspicious enough to, say, justify the assumptions you seem to be jumping to. So, yeah, I’d advise you to move cautiously- although, as others have said, there is no way to communicate the “vibe” you describe on a message board, so keep your eyes open.
What is this guy’s line of work? A Lawyer would have a fine reason for privacy.
Could there be a reason why he has turned his office into a “bunker”?
What do you mean by “bunker”? Could he be trying to keep the kids out?
Is he starting a business on the side?
A legit one?
Or perhaps a shady one, but different from what you believe? Say, illegal music downloads?
Could he be using drugs? If so, he may keep them there. Still immoral, but not what you suspect by a long shot.
As for the behavior of/with the kids–could be something else.
Definitely fishy, but I think that you’re also making some pretty big leaps, too.
How well do you know your niece? How often do you see her? Like someone else asked before, how does she respond to her dad? Have you noticed any changes in her behaviour (as in, she’s normally a bright, bubbly girl, but now has become more withdrawn or sullen) or dress? Does she tend to dread being around her dad, or does she act completely normal around him.
How does he act around her - do his eyes follow her around when she’s in the same room but not necessarily otherwise interacting with him? How are his verbal and non-verbal cues? Can you come up with any other reasons that might explain “the vault” that also fit your bro-in-law (as in, maybe he’s a gun enthusiast, but has responsibly taken a good amount of caution to keep them locked up and away from his kids. Or he’s a lawyer, as someone else guessed. Maybe he’s in the mob - okay, that’s not necessarily a good example.)
While the situation is really fishy, I can come up with another explanation. I can imagine a man who was devoted to his wife, but they’ve had problems lately. She’s put on some weight and has withdrawn from him. They’ve had discussions, but it hasn’t gotten resolved really. He doesn’t want to leave, because he still loves her (maybe) or because of their kids - maybe he thinks that if he leaves, she’ll automatically get custody, but he knows that she doesn’t have the capabilities or resources to take care of his son and daughters. He takes some solice in normal, everyday, legal porn, but doesn’t really want his kids to it or see how desparate and lonely he is, so he locks it up. It’s almost harder because his oldest daughter resembles her mom so much, the woman he loves, and seeing her makes him think of their good times. He tends to favor her a little, more of a nostalgic and wistful thing really. 'Course, I haven’t seen what you’ve seen, and obviously I don’t know the full story.
If possible, could your wife have a long talk with her sister? Sometime when he’s not around? I think that you need to get some more information, if possible, before taking the next step of calling CPS or detectives or police (even if anonymously).
If the wife is so anti-sex I’m inclined to think he’s just got a great big horde of porn in there, too. Perhaps she’s expressed disgust at such things before or even thrown them out, and he doesn’t want it to happen anymore. As for the affection, well, I was pretty affectionate with my daddy. I didn’t sit in his lap, but I didn’t really do that at all after 5 or 6 and you know, I wanted to…but it wasn’t approved of in my house because people “talk” just like this.
(I’m not pointing fingers at you, I think it’s wonderful of you to care as so few people do. But most of the things you say are explainable. )
Snickers makes several good points. A young girl like that should be willing to wear shorts or skirts (maybe not both, some don’t like shorts) and should just be beginning to be aware that she’s pretty. If she’s suddenly gone to heavy sweatshirts or other figure-concealing clothes that’s a warning sign. If she’s changed her behavior drastically, that too. Moroseness, or surliness where before she was cheerful and happy.
Keep us posted, please?
I feel bad for laughing in the middle of this thread, but that was exactly what I thought of too, Miller.
Do NOT “trust your gut”. Never trust your gut. Your gut is an idiot. Trust your BRAIN. Sometimes what feels like your gut is actually your brain, doing the math without showing you. So far, to me, it doesn’t add up to child abuse. Here’s why:
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Why does your mind go to “child porn” and not regular porn? You say he “stared” at you and that kids aren’t allowed in his private den. That doesn’t sound unusual at all to me. People often have offices or dens that private in their homes. Maybe sometimes they keep porn in there, sure, but do you have any reason at all for thinking “child” porn, except…
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He touches his daughter in innocent ways. This really bothers me. Now not only can strangers not touch a child in an innocent way without causing comment, but their own parents can’t either? You say he “puts” her on his lap. Does she seem uncomfortable? Does she change when he’s in the room, or when he touches her?
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The package-grabbing just doesn’t seem that weird to me, nor does it seem like the kind of sexual behavior people look for in abused children. In fact, it sounds to me precisely the opposite, that the kids are not sexualizing those parts and so don’t see anything wrong or special about grabbing them.
However, of all the stuff you’ve mentioned, this is the most alarming. I find it odd that you didn’t remember it to include in your first post, since it’s much more substantial than your other points. Memory is a funny thing; it can change without us realizing it. Are you sure that in your effort to justify your gut feeling you haven’t misremembered exactly what happened that day?
If not…or even if so, really, why not spend some time with your neice and get to know her and how she’s doing. You have no basis for taking any other action at this time.
kurahee–please post & respond to us.
We are concerned.
we’re just giving you different points of view.