All Diablo2 Talk here.........

Well, my sorc can teleport down to the Throne pretty reliably, but nowhere near that quickly. Either the sorceress you were playing with has a very well-developed sense of the patterns of the map randomizer, or she’s using Maphack. My sorc can also deal with the first three sets of minions pretty quickly (except for Colenzo, but as long as anyone else is targetting him, that’s fine), but the Venom Lords (unless there’s Conviction or Lower Resists around) and the Listerians pose a problem for her, as does Baal.

On the other hand, my paladin can handle the minions adequately (though slower than the sorc), and absolutely rips through Baal. Typically, I use my sorc for the first part of a run, and quickly switch characters about when Ventar shows up.

As for an ideal party, I’d build a little differently than Munch. I’d go with five paladins, a barbarian, a necromancer, and a sorceress, as follows:

Paladin 1: Avenger, conviction
Paladin 2: Avenger, salvation
Paladin 3: Hammers, concentration
Paladin 4: Medic, cleansing/meditation (with maxed Prayer)
Paladin 5: Zealot, fanaticism
Barbarian: Concentrator
Necromancer: skeletons, curses
Sorceress: Enchant, teleport, heavy artillery of choice

I’d then have one each of the six Act 2 mercs, but no more. If we want more tanks, we might as well use the act 5 barbarians, since they do more damage and have more life, and we already have the auras. We’d also want to use aura items, if available: Even though we already have all the good ones covered, this will inprove coverage if the group spreads out.

For the paladins, I basically chose the auras I wanted, and then chose the build which can best use that aura. The weak one is number 2, the Salvation paladin, but it’s a synergy for Vengeance, at least. And having him in the party will significantly free up everyone else’s equipment, so I think it’s a fair trade. Since Medic doesn’t take very many points, though, we could merge the Medic and Saviour to open up a slot.

A singing barbarian can have slightly higher warcries than a fighter, but his main value in party is to immobilize targets for the others (and we’re going to kill too fast for that to matter). Trust me, a singer’s damage output is slow, and he wouldn’t benefit much from the assorted mayhem the rest of the party is contributing. A concentrator, on the other hand, can easily max Battle Orders, and has a solid attack that’ll benefit from Might, Fanaticism, Concentration, Blessed Aim, and Conviction. We won’t need Battle Cry, since Conviction will already reduce monster defenses to near nothing, and Decrepefy does a better job on reducing damage. Leave the curses to the necromancer.

The necromancer will want all curses available, though he’ll mostly be using Lower Resist, Amplify Damage, or Decrepefy (hey, versatility is good). He only needs to spend one point on each, since the curses have such early diminishing returns, and he’ll be wearing +skill gear. Meanwhile, his army of skeletons will benefit from almost all of the party-friendly skills.

And the sorceress will enchant everything in sight (four melee characters, eight mercenaries, and a dozen or two skeletons), and contribute heavy artillery. Together with the hammerdin, she’s more than enough to clear out crowds. She can afford to specialize, since Conviction and possibly Lower Resists will leave nearly everything vulnerable to whatever element you choose. She can also afford to load up on magic finding gear, of course.

This leaves us without the benefit of the Druid’s spirits, but in a power party this size, I think we can expect to see at least one Heart of the Oak, Bramble armor, wisp projector, Nature’s Peace, and/or Passion weapon, all of which have assorted spirit charges, and a necromancer can contribute more minions than a druid, so I’m not sure how much we’re missing there.

I think we’ve forgotten Warcry, which, when maxed, stuns everyone around him for over 4.5 seconds. I can’t think of too many things that could “immobilize targets for the others” any better than that.

Okay, ultimate party posted without seeing anyone else’s.

  1. Hammerdin with Enigma and CTA (faster than relying on a barb). Teleports down to Throne with more life/blocking (and thus greater safety). Conc. will help, as will hammers, but ultimately there’s more to be had with…
  2. Summonmancer. Skellys, revives etc. maxed. Helluva lotta lag, nobody will feel any damage so the lag is acceptable. Uses Lower Res.
  3. Standard-issue sorc. Maxed meteor for 14K dmg/hit with +skills, will by definition have decent enchant. Casts Orb just to slow stuff down a touch.
  4. Barb for BO. A decent barb can get lvl 33 BO without trying all too hard. 21 from skill points (20 in BO, 1 from BC), dual +3 weps for +6, +3 ammy, +3 helm (though +5 is possible), all give you lvl 33 BO.
  5. Wind druid with maxed Sage and some other summoning stuff gives you more tanking, permanently slowed enemies and nice life bonus.
  6. Conviction paladin … maybe a Fistdin, I dunno.
  7. Javzon with appropriately maxed skills. Straight-up cookie-cutter build here for tanking.
  8. You notice I don’t have anyone around for defense. I have folks around to take damage and keep on ticking, but I don’t have anyone doing regen. I don’t think, with this party, that it’s altogether necessary. I’m gonna toss a pure zerker in here with just enough in Conc to live. But really, with the necro’s army, the druid keeping stuff from moving very much and the overall firepower being multiplied in by concentration and conviction, it’s more an issue of making sure people’s procs and connections are adequate for this party.

All this is without throwing in anyone to keep folks alive. I suppose the sorc could be given a Prayer merc and the paladin could have a Might merc just to make the damage that more hideously high, but at this point as I said it’s more a question of proc speed and connection reliability than killing any faster. Baal would probably fall to this group in 30 seconds max. I doubt some of the characters would even get to his corse to get a hit in.

I didn’t forget Warcry… That’s why I said he immobilizes things (except for champs and bosses). But we’ve already got Holy Freeze and possibly Decrepefy, plus any incidental hit slows target and cold damage, so things won’t move much anyway, and with a powerful sorc, you can just hit things on the move with fireballs, no need to wait for a meteor or firewall. Warcry immobilizes things well. Death immobilizes them even better :D.

And iampunha, a truly maxed meteor will do more than 14k. With level 34 meteor and fire mastery, plus maxed fireball and firebolt (synergies), you’re in the vicinity of 25k. But then again, we may want to put more in Enchant (and Warmth, its synergy), and we may want to replace some skills gear with magic find, so 14k might be more reasonable for running with this party.

Also, if you have an Enigma on your hammerdin and/or summonmancer, it might be wise to have multiple folks splitting up on the teleporting. Even without a paladin’s life and blocking, the sorc is probably faster-casting and has Energy Shield, so she’s still pretty safe.

Of course the easiest way to get experience quickly is to solo a players 8 baal run. That’s how, IIRC, the first guy to get to 99 in 1.10 did it (yes, it was a hammerdin).

While I’m burning another post, let me suggest a gear/stat alottment for a fast-killing WW:

Either Cranium Basher, Windhammer or BOTD Thunder Maul
Tyrael’s Might or Chains of Honor
Delirium, Cerebus’ Bite or Harlequin Crest
Highlord’s Wrath, MAYBE Seraph’s Hymn or a good +2 druid, hefty +life and +res rare ammy
Wisp Projector and Bul-Kathos
Verdungo’s Hearty Cord
Gore Rider
Dracul’s Grasp or Laying of Hands

Maxed sage, lycan and WW or WB, depending on which you want to do. I’d max Fury if WW and probably stun or maul or something if WB.

Charms and such would be pretty easy to figure out, I think.

The East MFsorc ran 14K per meteor going tank rather than MF, and the synergies were NOT maxed, so I figured 14K would do as a good estimate. Maxed meteor and fireball will give you something like 2K+/ball, and with lower res going that’ll do a touch more.

I’d personally be interested to see how fast a Hell Baal run could be done by this lot; vol and I used to do Hell Meph runs at about one every minute or two, and that was without me doing much damage at all so much as sitting there soaking up poison damage, but we didn’t kill everything down there. I recall the quickest Hell Baal runs getting to Throne in about ten seconds, maybe a touch more (I strongly suspect MH was used, but of course can’t prove it), and there wasn’t a lot that lived more than a second or three after it got spawned where the minions came from.

Chronos - I have a lvl 13 Medic that I started some time ago, but I need to do some partying to get him leveled. He doesn’t kill much solo.

Give him Sigon’s set. His kill time will halve, easily.

You guys are talking the best possible Baal runners, the difference between the best and very good here may mean a difference of 10 or 20 seconds in the whole run. With basically what we already have, we can run Baal without breaking a sweat.

theckhd has a lvl 95 pally that can cut through anything. He also has several other characters that can run, but the pally is easily the best.

Chronos has both his pally and his Fire Sorceress depending on what he wants to use, but the Sorc is the best tp’er in the group.

Yeti has his zon.

Eonwe has his druid, who needs to get some levels but with the party will be able to survive.

Now I’m not exactly sure who else has what, I keep getting people confused after those named above but I know of several others that I’m going to list the characters because I’m not sure who has what.

There’s a summoning necro with the complete Trang set who can take the necro spot if I don’t. There’s a lvl 83 barb who I imagine has the Battle orders down. There are a couple of more pallys in the lvl 75+ range that I’ve seen.

As for me, my summoner is about 1 million shy of level 88 with 425 or so magic find. I have a lvl 79 barb with about lvl 29 BO. I have a lvl 84 sorc with fire and maxed orb although I’d have to re-equip her. I have the javazon but Yeti has that spot although I could use her if he uses his pally. My new pet, the Bonemancer is only level 70, but even if he were higher he’d be of no use except maybe CE and my summoner has more points in it anyway.

Baal runs would not be a problem with just those characters.

And Chronos, I know all those synergies are interlocked. If you notice there are 5 of them. That’s 100 points to max them all. Even with the skill quests, you don’t get your 100th skill point until you’re level 89. That leaves you exactly 10 extra skill points if you’re level 99 to use for anything else if you want to max them all.

I’d actually be inclined to reverse those two, with me playing my paladin and theckhd playing his sorceress. My sorc is (I think) higher level than his, and his paladin is higher than mine, but that’s not the whole story. Due to greater practice, I suspect that he’s actually better than I at teleporting down, and although his pally is far more versatile than mine, mine is a little faster at killing bosses. Also, my paladin is more party-friendly than either his paladin or my sorceress (maxed conviction and an almost-complete medic build, vs. holy freeze)

And of course there’s not much difference between the best and the pretty good. That’s true in general for this game. But it’s still a fun thought exercise to try to think up the best.

Phase42, next time I see you on, I’ll give you some Enchant. Folks, given the killing power, what would be the best place for a 13 to level?

Arcane, then when that XP petres out, give him tomb runs. Or he might just go in norm trading games and do andy runs with a MS zon also enchanted. That would yield more per kill (lvl diff), but the run is more cramped and slow. Really, once he hits 14 or 15, IIRC, the XP will jack him up fairly quickly. I wouldn’t think more than a half-dozen runs would take him to lvl 25 as long as he’s doing them in full runs and he isn’t partied with more than one other person.

Elaboration on my Medic: he’s one of those Medic/UndeadHunter types. I slaughter the undead left and right (well, so far in Act1 Normal), but non-undead monsters fear me not. He’s going to be purely a party support character, so needs to be with a party to level. I was playing with a friend when I started the character, but I haven’t seen her online in quite some time. So DrOsborne has been just sitting for a while.

My advice is to just join open games if you want to level him. I play solo when I want to do some quests, but join open games to gain levels.

I really have only to viable characters for baal runs:

My level 90 amazon with upgraded perfect Titans (w/level 32 Lightning Fury) and my alt weapon is a Hellrack (w/level 28 Frozen Arrow). When equipped with Titans, I have 95/75/85/85 resists so I can be somewhat of a tank, but not like a paladin, so I move in and out when warranted. My real weakness is when there are numerous lightning immunes (gloams, burning souls, etc.), because when I use my Hellrack to freeze them, I am very susceptible because my resists are 63 less (losing use of Moser’s shield with 2 p. diamonds). My lightning damage is about 2900 per bolt (33 max bolts per throw - great for numerous gathering of monsters [and cows!]), and my frozen arrow damage is about 4000-4200 per arrow, not counting any critical strike(~57%), pierce(~65%), etc. I usually use a level 22 valkyre, which is a pretty reliable tank until the Oblivion Knights get in her way, but in most cases, my amazon can usually take care of the knights before the Valkyre kicks it.

I do have a level 79 Frantic Fanatic Zealadin™ with his newly acquired Lightsabre and max resists. I forgot which a2 merc is paired with him, but it does compliment him and the group. This character can’t solo as of yet, but can be very helpful in a party of 3 or more (2 is pushing it).

My Skellemancer is level 57, still a ways from any Hell running.

My Undeclared Barb is level 47, and in NM, not sure which way to go on the Skill Tree with this guy. Suggestions?

The others are just chuming around to collect items and dust.

Amazon or Paladin is what I currently have to offer for Baal running. I’m more comfortable with the Amazon, but I can certainly hang with the Paladin.

Also, I found another IK StoneCrusher…who’s interested that has a Barb?

I’m back!

slowly going through the posts i’ve missed to catch up. Here’s the stuff i have to contribute as of puhna’s update:

Barb Helms: Demonhorn’s Edge;
Druid Helms: Spirit Keeper
Axes Messerschmitt’s Reaver
Bows: (WF on nl)
Maces Cranium Basher
Spears: Viperfork
Swords: Froswind; (GF on nl)
Runes: trading for a jah soon enough so i can make an enigma
Set Pieces: i have griz’s set, so i have this covered.

other than the Demonhorn’s, i still have all of it too, on west scl

I’m flattered, but you’re probably right on both accounts. I’ve been in a fair number of efficient baal runs, and the teleporting is what makes or breaks a good run series. I’m quite good at them, so if it came down to it, i’d be fine with being the teleporter. Also, maxed conviction is on the whole better than holy freeze for baal runs (though that depends greatly on the party – a melee-heavy party will prefer the holy freeze in most cases). My pally may be more of a tank, but for a good baal run series you also need nice party cohesion, and with several sources of elemental damage in the party, conviction is better.

That being said, i think we could certainly do it. There’s no need for a “perfect” party, any decent setup will work, there just needs to be a few vital ingredients:

  1. Good teleporter – this one can’t be emphasized enough. Sometimes, it’s even advantageous to have two teleporters, perhaps one sorc and one hammer paladin with enigma.
  2. Tank – Someone’s gotta stand in there and take the beating while everyone else piles on the damage. If the casters are getting chased around and killed, the baal run falls apart pretty quickly.
  3. Elemental/Magical Damage – This is bar none the fastest way to breeze through the minions. The emphasis is on high damage area-of-effect spells like Lightning Fury, Blessed Hammer, Meteor, Blizzard, Hurricane, etc. Luckily, we have a few sources for this too.

My reccomendation would be the following party:
Teleporter: theckhd with ZapTwitchDie, who can teleport, has maxed Fireball/Meteor/Mastery/Blizzard as well as lvl 18 static to cover the entire minion area
Tank: Chronos with his conviction Pally, who can also increase the damage done by Zap and Yeti. Also, Eonwe may be able to cover this spot with his druid with a few levels (i think i remember it being a wolf?)
Elemental Damage: Yeti with his javazon is a good start. This covers lightning damage, while Zap has fire covered.

The rest of the party can be variable. A skelemancer would cover the tank spot, as well as providing lower resist. A Barb would be useful for battle orders, but isn’t necessary for me to teleport successfully (1000+ life and mana with max res all makes my sorc a pretty effective teleporter already). Pretty much anything else we want to add is fine. Also, once i trade for my Jah to make Enigma, my paladin could in theory take the place of the Teleporter and double as a tank. Or i could use ColdYouSo to tank and Chronos could teleport, as someone suggested earlier.

Of course, the setups suggested by everyone else would work fine too, since they cover all three important areas. All we need is to gather the dopers and do some runs.

Yeah, mine is a wolf. He’s up to 67 now, but I’m getting the feeling that his equipment is betraying him. I’m only doing 600-1000 damage per hit, and I don’t think that’s quite high enough.

He does very well in nightmare, but gets eaten alive in hell, mainly because it takes so long to kill anything beefy, and his resistances are pretty poor.

My paladin can’t really tank Lister and company, but that’s OK, because with my conviction on, Yeti seems to shred them in two or three throws… And I can hold out that long, at least. Lightning damage is good, too, because it can cut through knight packs, and I for one have to take things very slow when there are blivvies around.

My sorceress can also reliably and safely teleport down (usually), but I’m still prone to things like taking the wrong turn, or trying to teleport off the map. Experience is valuable here.

On the item checklist, what about facets? I know that Who_me? has a couple of lightnings, and I seem to recall hearing about someone on East finding a cold, but I don’t know if they’re level or die. Any others?

And whoever it was who was building the axe frenzier, we found another Rune Master the other day. Once you hit level 72, just ask. Or sooner, if you have room and want to hold on to it.

An armymancer (basically same as a skelemancer but with points in revives as well) would basically clear the way for the casters to take little non-cold explosion/ltg spark dmg, since revives and skellies tend to absorb damage remarkably well if they’re in the vicinity.

The potless sorc is in A1 of NM, going b/w there and Norm to level up some and cover ground in A1 quests. It’s really pretty easy, so much so that if the other chars end up being so easy to get through NM (and especially norm), I’m considering doing one from each charclass, doing a blurb on each and having y’all pick which one I try to take through Hell first.

We done got pitted.