Am I an Asshole??? (a little long, relationship stuff)

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
1

Ok, the obvious answer is yes, simply due to my choice of thread title.

The not-quite-so-obvious answer is conditional:

So, my wife and I were having a discussion last night, it was fairly well structured:
The topic came up
She stated her opinion and feelings
I acknowledged her opinion and validated her feelings (I repeated them to make sure I understood)
I stated my opinion and feelings
She acknowledged my opinion and validated my feelings (again with the repeating)
We discussed different Points of View, different Options and different Resolutions to the issue.
We both acknowledged and accepted a resolution and action plan.
We both validated each others feelings about the resolution.
The conversation ended.

Ten minutes later it came up again. The entire conversation word for word. At first I thought she might have some new insight into the situation or had rethought her opinion. Nope. The conversation concluded in the exact same way it had before.

About ten minutes later, yes, it came up again. Major deja-vu. I was very careful to listen to everything she said and repeat it to make sure I understood. I double checked to see if anything had changed. Nope. Once again the conversation worked itself out into the same conclusion.

Ten minutes later…

Ok, at this point I’m not seeing the value in rehashing this thing again. There is obviously something bothering her that she is not saying so I point this out. She denies it. I say “I really don’t want to go through this again, we have been through this before and come up with the same answer each time”

She said “Fine, I’ll just turn it off and find someone else to vent to”, walked away and proceeded to give me the silent treatment for the rest of the night.

I can’t help feeling like I have done something wrong but I don’t know if it is guilt I feel (guilt=a form of fear, a warning that you have done or are about to due something stupid) or shame (shame=another form of fear, a form of self doubt usually imposed from an external source)

Overall, I feel like an asshole, but have no idea what I did wrong.

I feel enough like an asshole that I resubscribed to SDMB just to elicit opinions on the subject.

So, what is it, am I an asshole for the events of last night or just a plain old general purpose asshole?

2

I’m not entirely sure anyone can weigh in on this without knowing the topic of discussion. But I will say that the old cliché about men talking to resolve a problem and women simply wanting to work something out orally (rather than in their minds) has some basis. That’s why it’s nice having girlfriends. Sometimes we’ll go on for hours not just looking for answers, but sharing similar experiences and validating our own feelings. But I am really, really overgeneralizing here.

3

Cat Fight is probably right, but I don’t think you were an asshole at all. (Of course, I wasn’t there.) There’s something else she’s not telling you, or you are not hearing. She needs to find new words. It’s her responsibility.

4

If I can rip that broad brush out of Cat Fight’s hands :wink: , I’d agree with her but amend it to: sometimes *people *want you to resolve a problem and sometimes *people *want to just work something out orally (I know, that sounds like “solve it”, but it’s different). Since your wife used the word “vent,” I’m guessing that’s what she wanted to do at that moment, regardless of what she usually wants.

Y’know how you have a train of thought that leads logically to one conclusion, and someone else has their train of thought and their conclusion and even when you understand one another’s conclusions and even how they got there, there’s a desire to make the two trains compatible? Maybe she kept having the same conversation with you hoping that she could reconcile your trains, not necessarily to get you to change tracks.

5

Without knowing what you were discussing, it’s difficult to express an opinion.

If it was something like “where shall we eat on Friday”, then you’ve behaved in a reasonable way in handling the subject, and she’s the one acting weird.

However, if it’s something massive and life-changing, like e.g. whether to have kids, move city, or something like that, then mere acknowledgement of her opinion and expression of yours is totally inadequate: in the event of disagreement, that’s something that requires one party to compromise massively.

6

The thing I am the most worried about is that this mirrors a situation and a conversation that occured last May. That conversation escalated (due to my own personal actions that I am not proud of) into violence and assult. Due to pending litigation I will abstain from specific detail of that incident (it is only peripherally related anyway) and provide a few more facts of the current situation (I apoligize that this is so long).

I left my ex wife in 2004.

We had two children together and one stepson,14, from her previous relationship.

I met my current wife four months later.

She has four children, the most pertenant to this story is a daughter, 13.

Every other weekend my three children (including my stepson) would visit on weekends before January of 2006.

In January of 2006 my stepson attempted a sexual assult on my wife’s daughter.

After this event, although the authorities did not pursue charges and my wife did not pursue charges, I imposed a restriction on his visitation. The other two children would spend the weekend and I would pick the stepson up on Sunday afternoon to spend time with him without exposing him to the wife’s children (esp. the daughter). This worked for 1 1/2 years.

The May incident arose from this situation.

After the May incident my ex-wife was no longer comfortable sending any of the kids to stay overnight and I started just picking all three up on Sunday afternoons.

My response to the May incident was: get arrested, get out of jail, go immediately to the mental hospital, spend 8 days there as an inpatient, get out of the hospital and schedule a routine of follow up therapy with a councelor (both individual and marital therapy), start attending a state approved non violence program (www.nonviolentalternatives.com) and try to learn how to insure such a situation would never happen to me, my wife or any future relationships, in any capacity ever again.

My ex wife recently started dropping all three children off on Monday evenings for a few hours, my wife was ok with the stepson for such a short time as we could closely observe his behavior.

Last Monday my stepson was talking inappropriately to the daughter, the daughter asked him twice to stop and he did not so I interviened.

He started seeing a therapist last Thursday to work out issues that lead to the original attempted sexual assult.

I talked with my wife, who was no longer comfortable with the stepson coming over on Monday’s due to the inappropriate talk and the failure to stop when asked.

I discussed this with the ex-wife and asked that he not come over on Monday’s.

She expressed that she was not comfortable with the younger two children coming over in light of the May incident. She felt that the presence of the older child provided a level of protection to the younger children.

This leads to the conversation at present:

*The topic came up * - the younger two children will not be visiting on Mondays without their brother.

*My Wife stated her opinion and feelings * - This is BS, your ex-wife cannot keep your kids from you. But she (my wife) cannot risk her kids by letting the stepson back into the house.

I acknowledged her opinion and validated her feelings (I repeated them to make sure I understood)

*I stated my opinion and feelings - * I agreed with her that we cannot take the risk, either the risk to the daughter or the risk to the stepson.

She acknowledged my opinion and validated my feelings (again with the repeating)

We discussed different Points of View, different Options and different Resolutions to the issue. - We each weighed in on how we felt about the different arrangements and options available to us.

We both acknowledged and accepted a resolution and action plan. - It was decided and aggreed on, by both of us, that we would not push the visitation issue with the younger children but without the stepson until after the legal issues were resolved, but as soon as they were resolved, the visitation would resume as before, with the younger two coming to the house on Fridays and I would pick up the step son on Sunday afternoons. This arrangement would be indefinate.

We both validated each others feelings about the resolution. - I was ok with this arrangement and she was ok with this arrangement.
*
The conversation ended.*

Whew, again I apologize for the length, it felt good to get it all out though.

Revisiting it and thinking about what I have learned in the last four months I still think the final decision is the best one.

So, yeah, I know where I have been an asshole in the past. I wish to avoid being one in the present or the future though.

Thanks for the comments so far.

7

I think no matter what the subject was, she was the one at fault. If you want to vent, you should actually say, “I’m just venting” or “I wanna bitch about this for a while.” That way, whoever you’re talking to automatically goes into good listener mode-- which is, after all, what you want-- rather than switching into problem-solver mode.

I can’t imagine just bringing up the conversation multiple times, expecting the other person to magically realize you just want to complain, and then denying that something is being left unsaid. That’s a mind-boggingly silly way of communicating. If she had better articulated the point of the conversation the first time, she would feel better, having gotten the complaining out of her system, and you would feel good, having been the sympathetic ear she wanted. As it is, she’s now twice as upset and you feel like a prick.

Frankly, I’d consider the silent treatment a favor rather than an angry reaction.

edit: I see you posted the topic of discussion. That’s a pretty serious topic. If I were her, I would have been more clear on my intentions in starting the conversation-- that’s definitely something about which communication needs to be clear, since you all need to work together to do what’s best for your kids. I understand how it could cause her a lot of worry and stress, but her venting style isn’t good for the situation.

8

I’m a little unclear on something here. You want to keep your stepson, who assaulted her daughter, away from the daughter. But your wife wants him to come over? That doesn’t make sense to me. I must have read something wrong. But it sounds like a very emotionally charged situation. There’s something else going on here, either something you’re not telling us, or something that you yourself don’t get. I vote for the latter.

Just a stab in the dark, there’s an 800-pound gorilla in the room, and you’re blind to it. To your wife it’s bloody obvious. You’re a jerk for not acknowledging what right in front of your eyes.

You’re in a tough spot, because she’s not going to tell you. You’ll have to either tease it out of her, or make one huge lucky guess.

9

Wow. With 7 kids to worry about, I would think your am-i-an-asshole issue is pretty miniscule in comparison. There’s bound to be more kid wars than the old stepson vs new stepdaughter. On top of that, you and the stepson have to be each other’s watchdogs? Sounds like you have a lot more to worry about than a stupid argument. Hang in there.

10

tdn - good insight, i agree with the 800 lb gorilla (what, I’m going to disagree with a giant ape?). I don’t know if teasing it out of her is a good idea. I think it might be a good idea to turn myself into a giant ear and listen for the gorilla’s footsteps. When I hear it approaching, I should keep listening as she vents on what is “actually” the problem. I know she is confused and hurt, she wants the stepson to return but she does not / cannot allow the stepson to return. I don’t know what to do. I feel torn between my wife and my stepson and I want to make the right decision for him. I want her to be accepting of this decision knowing that it is right for him.

Thanks again for the insight.

11

Thanks KO, good point

12

But she said she’s ok with you seeing the stepson alone, on Sundays (if I have thist straight). So, what is the problem? That your EX doesn’t want your other kids there because stepson provides them with protection? Protection from whom? The 13 year old daughter? You? :confused:

It sounds to me (and I may be completely wrong) that your current wife just wants the stepson to go away entirely, and (perhaps) she resents your other kids?

I don’t know–but there’s something else going on here in her head. It may or may not weigh 800 pounds, but it is an obstacle.

Good luck. I feel for your kids, your stepson, your stepdaughter and you. The wives, ex and current, I’m not so sure about.

13

If I am understanding this correctly, your current wife is upset that your ex-wife will not allow the two children you had with the ex to visit your home without “protection” from the stepson who assaulted your current wife’s daughter. What do your children need to be protected from? Why is a kid with a history of sexual assault a fit “protector” for anyone? I agree that it is BS that your ex won’t allow you to see your kids without the stepson present, especially since he doesn’t seem to have learned to leave your stepdaughter alone.

How old are your two kids with your ex?

14

Huh. I think I see a gorilla toe already. It’s an emotional conflict for her. How is her relationship with the stepson? Does she consider him just a relative of a relative? Or is there a deeper relationship there? If the latter, then you’re denying her an emotional need. You’re taking something of value from her. That’s an asshole move on your part. Bad enough. But what makes it worse is that you’ve made the sensible decision, so she can’t even get mad at you for it. On top of that, you’re siding with your ex wife instead of with your current wife’s emotions. Not her logic, her emotions. Underneath, maybe there’s now a little primal jealousy thing going on. But that’s irrational, right? So she’s not allowed to feel what she’s feeling. That makes her feel even worse, which she’s not allowed to do either.

There’s a whole ongoing symphony of conflict going on here, and you think everything’s “settled”, ya big dumb jerk. How insensitive. How can you not hear the very loud Gorilla Symphony in B flat?

Maybe she just wants you to listen to the symphony for a while. Acknowledge that it’s there. Groove to the tune a bit. Make it a shared experience.

I might be way off in my analysis here – I probably am – but this way of thinking about it while you talk about it might give you some insights. And it might give her some too. Maybe she doesn’t know that she’s thinking all of the above, maybe she just senses an inner turmoil but can’t sort out what it means.

If that’s the case, listen for emotional keywords. Love. Hate. Fear. Feel. Togetherness. Loneliness. If you hear one of these keywords and it seems a little out of place, ask her to go back and talk about that. Talk about the feeling. Yes, it’s irrational. But for her, it’s no less real.

You can’t logic your way out if this one. She gets the logic. But for her, there’s far more in play, and it’s important to her, and it can’t be settled. It can be worked through, but it can never be “and that’s the plan, period.”

15

I think that’s some good insight, tdn. I wonder if part of the stress is that the duration of your arrangement is indefinite. It’s “until the legal issues are resolved,” but I doubt you know when that will be.

Maybe in your next discussion, you could focus on what to do to make that indefinite time period easier. Maybe you schedule family phone calls with the younger two, which includes you and your wife. Like, every Thursday at 7:30 you talk and (not knowing the ages) read a story, or play a game together online, collaborate on a mail project, write them letters… you name it.

Were I in your wife’s shoes, I’d be worried about your connection with your kids. I’d want to know that you were going to maintain the connection, and that you’re not suffering unduly from separation. Maybe you could work on assuring her that you’ll work as a family to weather this storm.

16

It seems clear to me that the OP - Dad - is the one the stepson is “protecting” his sisters from during their visits. “get arrested, get out of jail, go immediately to the mental hospital” after finding out his stepson sexually assaulted his stepdaughter? This doesn’t take Sherlock Holmes, folks. Dad found out his stepson raped or tried to rape his stepdaughter and went a bit apeshit and hit someone (my guess is the stepson) back in May and is now facing legal and familial repercussions for it, as well as attending anger management training. And, based on his excellent recitation of the steps of managing an argument without violence, it looks like he’s been doing his homework, so good for him.

nd_n8, I don’t think you’re being an asshole at all. I think you’re doing your work and focused on making yourself a better person and your home a safe place for everyone. I think you’re doing great, actually. I think you messed up in May, but having been the daughter in your same scenario in my own family, I can say I get it, and I understand why you lost control. That doesn’t mean it was okay, it wasn’t okay at all. But you’re doing everything right to regain control, and that makes you a good parent.

My guess is that your wife is hung up on the “that’s just not fair, she can’t keep you away from your younger kids!” part of the argument. And she’s right, legally and ethically. BUT you know and I know and she knows that what’s right isn’t what’s going to work, and she can agree on that when you talk it through. Then she walks away, and that voice in her head whispers, “But this is just BULLSHIT! She has no right to…” and around we go again.

Are there other areas in which your wife feels your ex is overstepping her bounds, overcontrolling you or the children? It feels to me like the gorilla is related to that, and to her feeling unempowered around kids she considers at least partly hers, and feeling impotent that she can’t fix this situation that hurts you and your assorted children.

17

See, my assumption was that the wife wouldn’t want his stepson over at all but doesn’t want to come out and tell the OP that because it’ll - as has been so readily demonstrated - put his seeing his kids at risk. I know if I were the daughter in question, I’d certainly be pissed that my attempted rapist was even allowed in “my” house, especially since he’s not even the “real” son of my mom’s husband. Maybe the wife understands that and feels torn trying to make daughter and husband feel OK.

18

Upon reread, it does sound like current wife has issues with Ex laying down rules. But then again, I’d worry something fierce if stepson can’t seem to control himself --on a 13 year old girl? The boy has issues–I hope he gets the therapy he needs.

From Ex’s POV, she’s afraid that OP might go off again and hurt the younger ones (I think this is somewhat misguided of her–and she might fear treating her own son differently than the younger ones, so there is that to contend with). All this seems to flow through the OP. Perhaps the two women need to talk, along with the OP.

Whatever happens, the younger ones need their Dad. Sounds like stepson needs a dad, too. And 13 year old stepdaughter (where is her dad?).

Good luck.

19

You talk like you live in a self help book. Life isn’t like that, bud. I personally think there is too much, “I validated her feelings, she validated mine” crap. I think everything needs to be laid out on the table and if a huge verbal argument ensues, then so be it.

If you hit your stepson back in May, then he probably needed it, (not a fist to the head, but you know, a good ol’ fashioned ass whuppin). Sounds like he’s a disturbed individual and needed to be checked. Have you possible considered Military School for him? I would completely keep him away from your wife’s daughter, forever. He sounds like he hasn’t learned and that’s dangerous and scary in all honesty.

Your wife now doesn’t really have any right to get involved with you and your ex wife’s visitation deal. I know I won’t allow my ex girlfriend’s (now) husband to get involved with my son and my visitation. So tell her that she’s right and you highly value her opinion, but your visitation with your three kids is not really her business. The only thing that’s her business is when your disturbed stepson is around her daughter, and then, that’s not even her doing, you’re the one who has to control that situation.

I’m not trying to be a dick to you, but it sounds to me that you have a lot on your plate and sometimes a person with a little tough advice on the outside looking in helps. Consider it constructive criticism.

You need to deal with your ex wife first and foremost. What is on record for visitation from court? Anything at all? If not, I would advice drafting a parental agreement, going to mediation with your ex wife and working out a good visitation situation that way. Hell, bring your wife along on the last day, just so you can come up with something for your stepson and her daughter. Mediation helped me and my ex tremendously !

I would also advice not jumping into another relationship so fast with a person who has a litter of children (sorry, I had to) next time.

Take. It. Slow.

20

My WAG: maybe she isn’t letting it drop because she thinks you should be feeling more angry about this? If she’s angry at the BS, maybe she feels alone in that, when it is affecting both of you.