Am I the only person to hate Madonna?

[Maeglin]

It wasn’t funny the first time.

[armedmonkey]

**It wasn’t funny the first time.
**

First time? Damnit, I skimed the whole thread and didn’t see it. Sorry.

Anyway, besides a bad joke it was simply to point out that anyone who takes a revered, virginal, biblical figure as a namesake, and then blatantly markets herself as a sex object is probably more about style and shock value than actual talent. She got her start by employing the same shock value tactics as Marylin Manson - she was just a great deal better at it. She is still around for largely the same reason as Ed McMahon. She is a celebrity. Why is she a celebrity? I don’t know, she just IS.

[pldennison]

*Originally posted by Beeblebrox *
Anyway, besides a bad joke it was simply to point out that anyone who takes a revered, virginal, biblical figure as a namesake, and then blatantly markets herself as a sex object is probably more about style and shock value than actual talent

I may not like her much, but I do at least know that Madonna Louise Veronica Ciccone is the name on her birth certificate. Blame her parents.

[armedmonkey]

I seriously doubt she wasn’t highly aware of the irony.

[wolfseyn]

I love Madonna. I wanna eat her. With a spoon. Wait… no… no spoon.

mmmmm Madonna ← that doesn’t indicate sarcasm, it means I’m licking my lips.

It’s ok, honey… I’ll protect you from these mean people.

[Gary_Kumquat]

*Originally posted by Maeglin *
Pay closer attention to the context of the argument as well as the context in which the above artists and Madonna existed. Observe the difference in the way in which the music industry and advertising has changed in the past forty years. Simply juxtaposing other bands that have changed their tune over the years is facile Gary

Do you actually know much about either band, then? I wonder, because by your comment that it’s a facile analogy you’d appear not to be too familiar with the way that both bands were berated for their dramatic change in nature, for example the Beatles styles included skiffle, r&b, rock and psychedelia, all in a 10 year period, 15 if you include their earlier incarnations as the Quarrymen or the Silver Beatles. Now why is it “facile” to compare that sort of reinvention to Madonna’s over a 17 year period?

That’s the best you can do? Music is important to me. I listen to quite a bit of it. And what I hear I do not like. Am I a snob for not liking the best that a multi-billion dollar industry has to offer? I take your ad hominem remark to be a high compliment then.

I’m glad you feel music is important to you. Strangely enough it is to me too. Perhaps you’d like some sort of pissing contest over the size of cd collection, or who’s got the best amp? I mean, that has absolutely nothing to do with Madonna, but neither does your proclamation that the majority of music is banal crap. Have you actually considered just what that means in terms of the breadth of your taste in music? So far, you’ve listed Industrial and Trance, and one rather formulaic example (pah, call that Industrial? Go buy yourself some Throbbing Gristle or Psychic TV, Velvet Acid Christ are just 3rd rate NIN wannabees). You also give punk as a favourite (one of mine too, coincidentally)so I take it you treat the Sex Pistols with the disdain you have for Madonna - after all they were a cynically marketed band of limited musical ability, relying pretty much on attitude and a sense of zeitgeist to get by.

**Suddenly an allusion becomes intellectual snobbery? You are really grasping at straws here. You have not tried to refute my arguments about the propagation of corporate culture and have instead resorted to trying to alienate me as a snobbish elitist. **

Let’s have a look at that OP in full, eh? "Am I the only person to hate Madonna? " I must confess I missed the part saying “please debate corporate culture here”. I’ve already asked if it’s an issue particular to Madonna, which you’ve already agreed is not the case. So what more is there to say in this thread? Should we lament global brand names and modern capitalist business practice here, or perhaps in another thread? By the way, do try to get it right - I called you a pseudo-intellectual snob. I’m the elitist one, and quite happy to look down on anyone who tries to drag nihilist philosophers, corporate business practice or other almost humorously student style tactics to a rant about a pop musician.

Let’s see, I’m going to have to ignore the rather sophomoric diatribe on the advertising industry, not just because it’s got fuck all to do with this thread, but also because it’s as hackneyed a rant as I’ve seen in ages. So what are we onto next? Oh, a bit more ranting about “machinations of the culture industry”, hang on, skip that bit, what’s next? Oh, a fairly egotistical quote from Madonna, which you see as justification for your Nietzsche. Hmm, how unusual - an popstar with huge amounts of self belief. Should we also start chucking in Freudian comments about confidence, or would they be fuck all to do with this thread as well?

So, why don’t you just skip all the posturing, soap box oratory, and cod philosophy and get down to the real question here - what is it about Madonna’s tunes you don’t like? Let’s see, I guess life’s just a bit too serious for you to enjoy the early, candyfloss stuff. Now you don’t strike me as being really keen on dancing, so we’ll skip the vogue era. Guess you didn’t like erotic and those times, either. But me, I’d have nailed you as a production fan, especially with your liking for trance. Now, I’d have argued (though you’d not be the first to disagree) that Orbit’s production was far slicker than Mirwais, with the definite exception of Don’t Tell Me. Hell, I’d even have thought that the chopped production and start-stop beat was fairly comparable to some industrial mixers out there, like Dave Sardy. Or do you think a discussion on music wouldn’t be germane to this thread?

[Maeglin]

Do you actually know much about either band, then? I wonder, because by your comment that it’s a facile analogy you’d appear not to be too familiar with the way that both bands were berated for their dramatic change in nature, for example the Beatles styles included skiffle, r&b, rock and psychedelia, all in a 10 year period, 15 if you include their earlier incarnations as the Quarrymen or the Silver Beatles. Now why is it “facile” to compare that sort of reinvention to Madonna’s over a 17 year period?

This musical erudition is quite pointless since you continue to ignore the social context in which these bands existed and the nature of the industry that produced and distributed their music. Musical change does necessarily indicate contrived reinvention. While I do not question Beethoven’s abandonment of the late classical sonata-allegro form for a more robust romantic symphonic model, I do doubt Stravinsky’s dabbling in integral serialism towards the end of his career, quite possibly due to Schoenberg’s popularity.

While I feel that Pink Floyd quite legitimately left psychodelia after Syd Barret’s unfortunate collapse, I question Madonna’s constant reinvention to sell a product. I am not asking you to agree with me, and given the foolish rhetoric of what remains of your post I really do not care. All I ask is that you simply acknowledge the difference.

Beethoven wrote music.
Even the Ramones wrote music.
Madonna markets a product.

Perhaps you’d like some sort of pissing contest over the size of cd collection, or who’s got the best amp?

No, actually, I would rather not do that. My CD collection is not particularly large, nor is my stereo. I don’t know why you thought I would be receptive to such a discussion.

I mean, that has absolutely nothing to do with Madonna, but neither does your proclamation that the majority of music is banal crap.

Hello Pot, meet Kettle. It’s a discussion. It began with Madonna. It has broadened to the music industry, a topic which you have gladly embraced. Do not try to blame me for drifting off topic.

Have you actually considered just what that means in terms of the breadth of your taste in music? So far, you’ve listed Industrial and Trance, and one rather formulaic example (pah, call that Industrial? Go buy yourself some Throbbing Gristle or Psychic TV, Velvet Acid Christ are just 3rd rate NIN wannabees).

Thobbing Gristle is the band industrial wananbees say they like so people think they are cool. TG is seriously overrated. VAC is a pompous idiot who uses entirely too many movie samples; nevertheless, I find his music really appealing. Bryan Erickson certainly lacks Jim Thirlwell’s talent.

Of course I have considered what I have said. Why does this offend you so? Why do you take the fact that I do not like a broad swath of music that I have heard so personally?

You also give punk as a favourite (one of mine too, coincidentally)so I take it you treat the Sex Pistols with the disdain you have for Madonna - after all they were a cynically marketed band of limited musical ability, relying pretty much on attitude and a sense of zeitgeist to get by.

I do not hold the Sex Pistols to the same musical standards that I would hold Prokofiev to, to be sure. But they were refreshingly honest about who and what they were. Hence I am also fond of the Ramones, despite their lack of qualifiable talent. Jello Biafra said it perfectly in My Payola:

*I’ll play my music boring
I’ll play my music slow
I ain’t no artist I’m a businessman
No ideas of my own.

I won’t upend or rock the boat
Just sex and drugs and rock ‘n’ roll.
[/quote]

Any band that openly admits its own commodification and makes fun music is ok in my book.

Let’s have a look at that OP in full, eh? "Am I the only person to hate Madonna? " I must confess I missed the part saying "please debate corporate culture here

That’s a load of shit, Gary. In my brief initial post I explained why I didn’t like Madonna, and gave a few short reasons. If you weren’t interested in debating Madonna on anything other than a purely musical level, perhaps you should not have started to discuss my so-called empty rhetoric. You cannot put the shit back in the horse.

I’ve already asked if it’s an issue particular to Madonna, which you’ve already agreed is not the case. So what more is there to say in this thread? Should we lament global brand names and modern capitalist business practice here, or perhaps in another thread?

Whether the issue is particular to Madonna or not is totally irrelevant. It certainly does apply to Madonna, hence it is germane to the discussion.

Your next point is equally sophomoric. There is no logical reason why a specific discussion on one issue should branch out into a myriad of different avenues. When discussing capital punishment, even using general and grandiose language, there is no reason to suspect that the topic will expand to encompass, say, speculative cosmology. The fact that I am complaining about Madonna’s song-product does not mean that I am going to take on “global brand names.” Nor does that fact that they may be related issues discredit my analysis either.

You are going to have to do better than that.

I’m the elitist one, and quite happy to look down on anyone who tries to drag nihilist philosophers, corporate business practice or other almost humorously student style tactics to a rant about a pop musician

Student style tactics? I am responding point by point. You have continued to belittle me and ignore most of my arguments in favor of petty insults and intellectual masturbation. I am glad you think that you are elitist; even you deserve a little bit of self-esteem. The reference to Nietzsche was obviously off the cuff, and anyone who reads this thread will easily see that it is not central to my argument whatsoever. Your continued disparragement does you no credit.

And corporate business practice has everything to do with a rant on pop musicians. The fact that you either instinctively do not agree or fail to understand the connection does not render my arguments sophomoric.

Let’s see, I’m going to have to ignore the rather sophomoric diatribe on the advertising industry, not just because it’s got fuck all to do with this thread, but also because it’s as hackneyed a rant as I’ve seen in ages.

It certainly does have fuck all to do with this thread. Your own attitudes are case in point.

It was also not a rant. I will let you know the next time I write one.

Furthermore, if it were so hackneyed, surely you should have no trouble whatsoever refuting it. Well?

So what are we onto next? Oh, a bit more ranting about “machinations of the culture industry”, hang on, skip that bit, what’s next?

Skip that bit because you do not know what the fuck to say. Either that or you are an A&R man.

Oh, a fairly egotistical quote from Madonna, which you see as justification for your Nietzsche. Hmm, how unusual - an popstar with huge amounts of self belief. Should we also start chucking in Freudian comments about confidence, or would they be fuck all to do with this thread as well?

You really are hung up on that, aren’t you? I wonder how I struck such a nerve.

So, why don’t you just skip all the posturing, soap box oratory, and cod philosophy and get down to the real question here - what is it about Madonna’s tunes you don’t like?

So far all you have done is dismiss my “soap box oratory.” See, it doesn’t work that way. So either put up or shut up.

Or do you think a discussion on music wouldn’t be germane to this thread?

Wouldn’t be germane at all.

:rolleyes:

If you were so hard on for expressing your knowledge of Madonna, perhaps you should not have written your last half dozen or so posts.

[Gary_Kumquat]

Maeglin, to summarise:

Any comparison I care to make to musicians of the 60’s and 70’s who change over the years do not count because of social context. It is however okay for you to use as an example a classical musician of late 18th, early 19th century.

Madonna does not make music but product, because you say so. The Sex Pistols do make music, because you feel they’re honest about being cynical in marketing their product.

You’re not too keen on Genesis P-Orridge’s various incarnations, and anyone who claims to like them is lying. It is acceptable to like some really, really poor NIN plagarists.

The behaviour of the music industry is an acceptable reason to say you dislike Madonna. You feel that the behaviour of the music industry is a Very Bad Thing.

I really, really don’t suppose you’re ever likely to respond to any of the questions about her albums, producers, better songs, or that sort of thing? Nope?

Also, I don’t suppose there’s any chance you’ll define your guidelines on what is and isn’t music.

Just as an aside, I was out clubbing last night with the good lady wife and they actually played a couple of Madonna songs towards the end of the night - Holiday, and Who’s that girl, if alcohol befuddled memory serves. Crackingly good fun to dance to. Also quite surprisingly well linked in by the DJ from some Kid Loco.

[Maeglin]

Any comparison I care to make to musicians of the 60’s and 70’s who change over the years do not count because of social context. It is however okay for you to use as an example a classical musician of late 18th, early 19th century.

It is the spirit in which the examples are drawn. I am extremely surprised that I even have to make these points, Gary. It appears that you are trying to detach the arguments I am making from the context of the disucssion.

I was not making an example of Beethoven in the same way you were using the Beatles and the Stones as an example. I was arguing against a facile comparison of musical change between different eras. The issue is not one of change, but of social and historical context. Some artists change because they do. <shrug> Some artists keep on top of trends to sell records and to maintain their quality of life. Ultimately I can only tell the difference based on the kind of media attention the artist receives and the perceived quality of the music.

Madonna does not make music but product, because you say so. The Sex Pistols do make music, because you feel they’re honest about being cynical in marketing their product.

Madonna’s music is marketed via advertisements, television images, and targeted demographics just like every other commodity. It is inoffensive. It appeals to as broad an audience as possible. It is marketed right alongside Madonna’s look, clothes, and image. If you want to be hip, you will consume goods that allow you to participate in this image.

Obviously Madonna makes music. Hell, a lot of people think 4:33 of Silence by John Cage is music. I believe that Madonna produces commodified music.

I am not a huge Sex Pistols fan. I admit to wanting to participate somehow in Sid Vicious’ image and geist, a trait which I find contemptible in others. Hence although I find his mix of cynicism and exuberance refreshing, it is not really something I want to be a fan of, as it were. I don’t like the Pistols that much. As I have said earlier, I prefer the Dead Kennedys.

You’re not too keen on Genesis P-Orridge’s various incarnations, and anyone who claims to like them is lying. It is acceptable to like some really, really poor NIN plagarists.

I never said that anyone who claims to like them is lying. I merely said that they are overrated, and often appropriated to give the speaker some kind of “street cred.”

I never said it was “acceptable” to like VAC, either. I may not be proud of it, but if the music appeals to me on some level and I don’t feel like I am supporting the death of western civilization, I am not going to forbid myself from enjoying something. I think this is where you are misreading me. I will address this later.

The behaviour of the music industry is an acceptable reason to say you dislike Madonna. You feel that the behaviour of the music industry is a Very Bad Thing.

No, no, and no.

I do not like Madonna’s music because I do not like Madonna’s music. I do not believe believe that bad music is caused by the industry, but the reverse. A&R men dig up the latest “subcultures” and manufacture their images in magazines, with merchandising, and on CDs. What they tend to pick up, again in my opinion, is the lowest common denominator of music. Usually banal trash that will sell to as many people as possible. Furthermore, surely someone as musically sensitive as yourself can feel an artist’s insincerity. Whether an artist is insincere or not, it is the feeling of such that inhibits enjoyment of the music.

Madonna’s music is very polished. There is no denying that she has a fortune to spend on production. She has a solid, if not top tier voice. But to me, her music is an empty box, wrapped with expensive tin foil.

I really, really don’t suppose you’re ever likely to respond to any of the questions about her albums, producers, better songs, or that sort of thing? Nope?

Why should I? My budget is small enough for CDs that I actually want to buy. Furthermore, as I do not have a particular axe to grind about Madonna herself, I have not felt the need to spend a great deal of time learning the nuances of her corpus in preparation for a future SDMB thread. I listen to a great deal of music. I have heard a number of her songs over the past fifteen years. One does not have to be an anointed expert to express his dislike.

Also, I don’t suppose there’s any chance you’ll define your guidelines on what is and isn’t music.

Now I can apoligise for being unclear. I do not mean to say it is strictly not music, but commodified music. Does that help?

Just as an aside, I was out clubbing last night with the good lady wife and they actually played a couple of Madonna songs towards the end of the night - Holiday, and Who’s that girl, if alcohol befuddled memory serves. Crackingly good fun to dance to. Also quite surprisingly well linked in by the DJ from some Kid Loco.

Kid Loco to Madonna? Hmm…what kind of club was this?

As another aside, and totally unrelated to Madonna, I accidentally downloaded a terrific song the other day. It was misattributed to another band, hence the accident. Marc Almond and the Mambas’ A Million Manias. I’d love to buy the CD now, but it’s a $40 import. It’s a pretty far cry from Tainted Love, but I think it’s brilliant all the same. You know any of the other tunes on the album Torment and Toreros?

My taste is my taste. I do not try to apply artificial, universal, or even coherent standards to the kind of music I allow myself to like. I realize that it certainly came off that way.

I did not start listening seriously to music until I was about 14 or 15. Why? My formative years were filled with G&R, Bon Jovi, Warrant, New Kids on the Block, Vanilla Ice, and yes, Madonna. It took me a few years to even admit that I liked music at all. It took me a few years more to begin to speculate why I liked virtually nothing that popular radio stations played. Although the genres of music changed considerably, I still didn’t understand why everyone was going crazy over new bands. I don’t understand Nirvana any more than I understood Madonna.

What’s the least common denominator between them? Their appropriation and cooption by the record industry. It’s not that everything it touches turns to shit, but that everything it can mass market, to a certain degree, already is shit. To my ear. There are, of course, plenty of exceptions. Like I said, I am not trying to be universally consistent.

[PookahMacPhellimey]

Wow not a bad reply-count for newbie :), must have hit a nerve.

Anyway, there is many things that I have to say on the topic, the thing is that Maeglin is saying them so eloquently that I find it difficult to add to it. Just a few random points that might not have been covered:

1. As the starter of this thread I feel I must point out that I do not feel that anyone who used this topic to criticise the music industry is in any way off the topic. This is not because of a “I started it, so I own it” kind of feeling, but because my argument for being er…“anti-Madge” has been her business woman rather than musician attitude to making and selling records. Any discussion would surely have to take issue with that point.

2. Following on from point one, I have to say that I would not take issue with anybody who sincerely likes the actual MUSIC. If that is your taste, then good luck to you. The issue is the way she is selling her music and the fact that IMO the music is not that important to this at all, that bothers me.

3. A little aside. People may view Madonna as a role model for people who want to acheive success. Some people have pointed out that she started out with nothing and became hugely successful.
   I agree with Maeglin that will-power and success are neutral in themselves, that it depends what it is that you acheive rather than acheivement itself that counts.
   Following on to this I want to add the old chestnut that “money does not buy you happiness”. I hope this does not make it sound as if I begrudge Maddie her money. But really, in all sincerety, I would rather write/sing/perform music that moved people in some way, or made them think, keeping my integrity and earning just enough money to get by.
   So when I do get irritated by Maddie, I try to realise that it is sincerely doubtful that she is truly happy, never having understood what is truly important in life.

Sophie