She is the epitomy of shallow manipulation of the mass media, and therefore of impressionable pre-pubescent girls.
I find her disgusting.
Don’t hate her, just don’t like her.
And why do people like how she dresses? It looks like all my old holloween costumes and bad undergarment mistakes and Cal’s sister’s Catholic school uniform all put together in a pile, and it was the only clothing she could find when she got dressed in the dark.
<Bows deeply> You are too kind…<blush>
I don’t particularly like her, but I don’t obsess about it. I just change the channel.
The Zen Master and his Pupil came to a River, and found Madonna waiting on the Bank. The Zen Master scandalized his Pupil by picking Madonna up and carrying her to the other side.
“But Master,” asked the Pupil, after they had left Madonna at the River’s Edge, “I thought that we were not suppsed to have anything to do with women.”
“I left Madonna at the River,” replied the Wise Master,“And you are still carrying her. Besides, it’s not like I bought her CDs or anything.”
I think she does not get enough recognition for Ray of Light. That was an excellent album by most measures, and it changed my opinion of her. Yes, she didn’t write the songs, or play the instruments, or have an especially fantastic vocal range, or even do the cover art…but the whole CD just sort of came together, with her being the “glue” as it were. Sometimes it seems like that happens - someone is in the middle of something really good, without having seemed to have done anything towards that end. Well, I believe that she did do something - she put the album together and made it pretty good.
A lot of people have a knee-jerk reaction to hate her, and I wish credit could be given for some of the things she has done musically. Yes, she is shallow, pretentious, vain, snooty, self-obsessed, and has the emotional maturity of an 8-year old, but she does make the songs work. And she does work her ass off too.
Very true. She has great talent for spotting good production, and working with it. The William Orbit produced “substitute for love” was an excellent song, and her singing was flawlessly matched to its tone and pace. I’ve seen good session singers (read extremely talented but without a recording contract) struggle very hard to perform that one.
She’s clever, she constantly looks to upcoming trends, and she can pick good talent to work with. Certainly I’d argue that you’d be wrong to describe her thus:
Nope, that would be BSB, nsync, Christina whatever, Britney…now that’s shallow manipulation, and not even particularly well done.
I used to like Madonna, way back when, during the period when her first few albums were released. I saw her in concert on the “Like A Virgin” tour (and, as it happens, was surprised by how bad her voice was in concert). Eventually, I just stopped liking her music. It got boring, IMO.
What really galls me is the way the media fawns over her as a trendsetter. She isn’t a trendsetter–she’s a trendspotter. She looks for whatever is going to be the next big thing, latches on to it and “reinvents” herself again, and rides the wave as long as it will last, then looks for a new one. She’s a musical Faith Popcorn, only less interesting. Not only that, she has a tendency to kill the trend once she does her thing with it.
As far as her acting goes, facts is facts. With a couple of notable exceptions, every movie in which she’s appeared has been an unmitigated flop. For every “Evita” there are two "Body of Evidence"s.
I don’t love her or hate her. I just find her dull and uninspired. Her “Look at me!” antics were boring five years ago, and they’re even more boring now.
I certainly do not have any respect for her as a businesswoman nor as a trendspotter. She employs the cynical and shameless techniques of planned obsolescence to prey on the insecurities of those who need to be cool, hip, etc. I do not inherently respect people who act on the Will to Power merely because they are hard working, focused, and confident. I believe that her particular brand of targeted, corporate-manufactured, flatulent trash is poisoning America’s already inebriated culture.
MR
Slight problemette there. Madonna isn’t held to be hip or cool by afficionados of trend culture (Madonna? Guy Ritchie? That’s soooo '99, darrrling). For example - Mirwais was relatively hip in DJ terms, right up till he was named as the producer for Music, whereupon he was dropped to pop fodder status. Secondly, what do you mean by planned obsolescence? If you’re referring to the somewhat fickle nature of trends in music, isn’t that a complaint that should be aimed at consumers rather than producers?
Any chance of a translation?
Aficionados of trend culture cannot marshall the buying power of the masses who are weeks, months, and often years behind them. While those clad in black turtlenecks and badass attitude may sneer at Madonna, she commands the brand loyalty of millions.
I mean exactly what I say. Manufacturing, exploiting, and discarding short-term music acts popular with the 18-24 demographic is what keeps the music industry and its accompanying media parasites in business. Feeding on their market’s need to be “in,” the industry raises up a movement ex nihilo with radio air time, panegyric in Rolling Stone, and mass marketing on MTV. When a new sound, perhaps even more impertinent and pseudo-rebellious than the last comes along, the industry closes one product line and opens another. Suddenly it is no longer cool to wear flannel and not take showers.
Are consumers fickle? Of course. Is the industry preying on deep-seated insecurity and the herd instinct of its target demographic? You better believe it. When I quit my day job, I am going to do a literary history of various musical movements in the past ten years in such magazines as Rolling Stone, Vanity Fair, Details, and other such stuff. Music is marketed just as any other product line, from ladies’ shoes to computers.
Which words didn’t you understand, Gary?
MR
Yes, yes and a terrible thing it is too. So, if it’s “short-term music acts” that you’re so annoyed at, I take it you admire Madonna for her longevity?
Yup. Absolutely true. And again, it’s a terrible thing, and one to which every artist signed to a normal record label can be held accountable. Out of interest, which artists do you like?
None of them actually, it’s just you appear to have assembled them in a piece of rhetoric completely devoid of meaning, for example “Will to power” or “America’s already inebriated culture”. Even if we ignore those, it doesn’t make sense - “I do not inherently respect people…merely because they are hard working, focused, and confident”. Sounds pretty respectable to me.
While Madonna may be in fact one person, her career is a history of short-term acts. Other posters have already made this point rather eloquently, so I see no reason to revisit it.
Of course they are held accountable. But that cuts both ways. First, labels tend to sign on artists that they can mass market to a specifically targeted demographic who will purchase the CDs and buy in to the accompanying image and merchandising. Hence, in my opinion, the majority of artists major labels sign on produce banal crap.
Second, I recognize that being a musician is bloody fucking hard. I cannot fault people for wanting to succeed, namely, not have to work a day job, get paid lots of money, and get blow jobs from groupies after every concert. I am not at all unsympathetic to the concerns of rock stars, despite my cynicism and sarcasm.
You may lambaste my musical tastes elsewhere if you like, as I do not want to hijack this thread away from Madonna. But I will give you a short list, just so you cannot accuse me of not putting up.
Most music I like is dead and gone. But I have plenty of modern favorites.
I’m a big fan of hard industrial and trance. You may find my remarks on some of my favorite bands here. Though for some reason I neglected to mention one of my favorite acts there, Velvet Acid Christ. Maybe it’s because the singer/writer has been such an asshole lately.
I love good, political punk. Any time I listen to the Dead Kennedys is time well spent.
Lots of other stuff, and even some establishment acts, as it were.
Well, cobbled-together rhetoric it certainly is not.
Will to Power: I was referring to the book of the same name by Nietzsche. It’s quite good, though published from Nietzsche’s notes after his death. I apologize if you found my allusion to be “completely devoid of meaning.”
Inebriated culture: this seems quite clear to me. Saturated. Confused. Yet exhilarated as one fad overtakes the next.
As for not respecting people who are hard-working, focused and confident, well, I stand by that completely. These are morally and ethically neutral. If hard work is directed to an end which I consider evil or at best reprehensible, I certainly have no respect for the personal skills that make this bad end possible. I certainly do not respect Stalin for his thoroughness and attention to detail.
MR
Which could equally be aimed at the Beatles, Stones or any number of other artists who changed massively during the course of their career.
Ho hum, no musical snobbery going on here then.
And no intellectual snobbery either, eh. Sorry to disapoint you, but I’ve got a copy of it as well. And it still doesn’t make any sense to refer to it as you do, any more so than if I were to rephrase your sentence with another Nietzschean title such as “I do not inherently respect people who act on the Gay Science merely because they are hard working, focused, and confident”
In all honesty, don’t you think it’s ever so slightly pseudo-intellectual to dismiss the majority of artists as crap and to throw in gratuitous references to a 19th century philosopher most concerned with Christianity and morality?
Madonna is a barometer of cool and a fantastic dancer. You can’t take that away from her. Also, she has made the best of a mediocre instrument when it comes to vocals. Her last two records are really entertaining. If you can’t dig pop music, that’s one thing. But if you enjoy pop, then what does her music lack that other pop has? I’ve always found her stuff to be bouncy and infectious. She has always pressed buttons though - perhaps that’s what brings out all the haters.
Ruin American Pie? Christ! That song could not be more rancid even if Right Said Fred covered it.
Ahhhh…it’s amazing what a lot of money and a good plastic surgeon can do for a girl.
Ahhhh…it’s amazing what a lot of money and a good plastic surgeon can do for a girl.
Pay closer attention to the context of the argument as well as the context in which the above artists and Madonna existed. Observe the difference in the way in which the music industry and advertising has changed in the past forty years. Simply juxtaposing other bands that have changed their tune over the years is facile, Gary.
That’s the best you can do? Music is important to me. I listen to quite a bit of it. And what I hear I do not like. Am I a snob for not liking the best that a multi-billion dollar industry has to offer? I take your ad hominem remark to be a high compliment then.
Suddenly an allusion becomes intellectual snobbery? You are really grasping at straws here. You have not tried to refute my arguments about the propagation of corporate culture and have instead resorted to trying to alienate me as a snobbish elitist.
This is a crucial tactic employed by the advertising industry to enforce compliance with the images it sells. The ordinary Everyman shows up the Grey Poupon eating snob in a thirty second spot. The Commoner humiliates the Aesthete. A Pizza Hut commercial juxtaposes a black-and-white old shirtstuffer with electric color and rock and roll. Pizza Hut, the restaurant in revolt. Ever see a commercial for Somers, a drink that the images say is to gin as an electric guitar is to an old violin?
Therefore everything un-snobbish must therefore be the culture of the People. Forget about the machinations of the culture industry: the mergers and acquisitions, the “synergy,” the cynical calculations of demographic penetration and “usage pull.” What the media industries tell us to listen to and watch must therefore be the grassroots expression of a nation, for any deviation must by definition be cultural and intellectual snobbery.
Your own attitudes have demonstrated the efficacy of this peculiar method of product pushing. Once discrimination was valued; now it is reviled.
And if you had actually read The Will to Power, I am quite sure that my point would be clear to you.
My dislike of what I hear on the radio and my relatively innocuous allusion to a book that a fucking lot of people are familiar with have absolutely nothing to do with each other. You conflate them in order to discredit me as a pseudo-intellectual and an elitist, while you have systematically left my arguments alone. Congratulations for responding exactly how the advertising industry would want.
Nietzsche was concerned with power. So is Madonna.
I think the connection is obvious.
You are completely off on this one. As those of us who saw the famous nudie shots of early in her career remember, God was kind to her in his breastly gifts. Those pictures were taken when she was just a slip of a girl, and a completely broke slip of a girl to boot, who could not have afforded to have her breasts done. Forget the fact that I’ve never seen a fake breast half as lovely as hers are.
And as long as I’m here revisiting this silly thread filled with simply goofy accusations about Madonna, I’d like to express my admiration for you, ** Gary Kumquat **. Well done, very well done!
stoid
You know, I’ve read this whole thread and still have no clue as to what you people are talking about. What does ANY of this has to do with The Virgin Mary?
excuse me. What does any of this have to do with the Virgin Mary?